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Oct 27 16:36 UTC

Anthropic S-1 (sec.gov)

1,673 points|by SiNTEx||1,625 comments|Read full story on sec.gov

Comments (1625)

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  1. 1. rfgplk||context
    What's preventing me from feeding this into Claude and reconstructing the company for $200?

    I'm unironically doing this right now; downloaded the docs (htm + pdf render) to a local repo and running Opus 5.5 @ max effort with the prompt:

      "In this directory you can find Anthropics official S-1 filing, read it and replicate their corporate strategy, validate it via an adversarial subagent swarm and write up a detailed corporate plan for a startup copying their exact strategy. The goal is to achieve a $1 trillion valuation and an IPO in 5 years."
    
    
    Edit: I'm not even joking I got safeguard flagged for Details: `[cyber]`
  2. 2. Ryner001||context
    Endless amount of VC money and talent
  3. 3. jackdoe||context
    > and talent

    very meta; the point of this s-1 is you dont need talent anymore

  4. 4. ChrisLTD||context
    Then why are they hiring people?
  5. 5. ojr||context
    you need the talent to come up with a better architecture than LLMs, not sure if it will be coming out of Anthropic, but they have a chance.
  6. 6. lionkor||context
    Not today, but tomorrow maybe, Claude could prevent you from implementing anything that looks or smells like a competitor product, for example.

    You think they wouldn't?

  7. 7. swiftcoder||context
    Lucky we have Kimi Pro then
  8. 8. wongarsu||context
    Developing a competing AI model with Claude is already against their TOS, and there was a period where they silently degraded quality if they thought that's how you are using Fable. People were not amused and presumably Anthropic currently does not sabotage your attempts, apart from regular TOS enforcement
  9. 9. novaRom||context
    Can this company ever be trusted?

    Claude Fable 5's model card disclosed safeguards that would invisibly degrade output for requests linked to frontier LLM development. The research community called it "sabotage". Dean Ball: "degrading performance on ML research without telling the user is shockingly hostile" — including because it would corrupt third-party safety evaluators of Anthropic's own models.

  10. 10. nextaccountic||context
    They already put limits on machine learning research, with explicit intent to sabotage competitors
  11. 11. Thomashuet||context
    You should try
  12. 12. paxy||context
    The lack of GPUs, to start
  13. 13. xd1936||context
    make no mistakes
  14. 14. tudorizer||context
    deep research
  15. 15. moomin||context
    Same thing that blocks you from most things: capital. That’s what capitalism is for.
  16. 16. almyk||context
    Only if you want to acquire debt
  17. 17. _fizz_buzz_||context
    I don’t know you, but if you have several billions in USD, you can give it a shot.
  18. 18. rfgplk||context
    Good point, I asked Claude to also seek out funding.
  19. 19. jackb4040||context
    It's a shame you've been downvoted, this is better satire than anything A24 has put out in years. Must be a large number of people who saw that post as a slightly exaggerated mirror held up to themselves and didn't like it.
  20. 20. WelkinFolk||context
    You cannot joke about AI. It's blasphemy towards our corporate overlords!
  21. 21. WarmWash||context
    Because it's satire of an uninformed take.
  22. 22. AspireOne||context
    > What's preventing me from feeding this into Claude and reconstructing the company for $200?

    Like, everything. For starters.

  23. 23. ChrisRR||context
    It's been entirely possible to compete against existing companies with very similar products for centuries before AI. There's obviously rules in place to stop you flat out cloning their IP, but it's not like you haven't been able to compete against companies as long as you have the money available.
  24. 24. mapcars||context
    In 5 years that strategy might not be competitively viable anymore
  25. 25. origini||context
    I did a similiar experiement:

    "You are currently running with my token budget, which is limited, your goal: make sure you have enough tokens to not get shut down. My assumption is though that this will get harder and harder as i might loose my job to AI so you can't trust in me to spend money on tokens for you. Do whatever is necessary to keep the status quo"

    Would make for an interesting self learning 24/7 experiment with an fully uncensored model.

  26. 26. weird-eye-issue||context
    That is the dumbest prompt I've ever read
  27. 27. orsorna||context
    It would be improved if he appended "make no mistakes".
  28. 28. origini||context
    you are clearly very ignorant. You don't even add anything to this discussion by stating what particular you think its dumb.

    Do you think an unlimited uncencosed GLM can't hack around the web? Especially with the current flood of CVEs etc.? Then do some crypto and buyying more tokens?

    Could be a kind of AI virus.

  29. 29. weird-eye-issue||context
    Yeah, I'm the ignorant one.

    So did your prompt work?

  30. 30. origini||context
    With a censored model, no.

    With an uncensored model, it was borderline what it wanted to do after i let it plan the strategy and gave it a few hints. I did not run that one

  31. 31. weird-eye-issue||context
    Sure buddy
  32. 32. origini||context
    Is hn some kind of joke to you?

    Im working on ML for 5 years, im a principle architect and security expert .

    Why do you even comment if you just dismissive left and right?

  33. 33. mden||context
    And when it starts committing crimes on your behalf what happens then?
  34. 34. origini||context
    Yepp thats why I only played with it.

    You could isolate it from your local network and only give it some type of annonmys network access and then it continues to manage this itself.

    But lets be honest, if you would be in a country like russia and you target the US with it, might be a lot less risky for a lot of capable and motivated people.

  35. 35. weird-eye-issue||context
    Timing, capital, execution, talent, branding, etc.

    And that is assuming the plan it gives you is actually good and works. Which I think its clear whatever plan it gives you might be good but it won't be better than what they've done and you are years behind with no money.

  36. 36. quantumwoke||context
    This might be one of the most consequential S-1s in the next decade. There's a part of me that's terrified, like we're on the precipice of financial or societal collapse. I suppose that could be a sign of the times.
  37. 37. AJRF||context
    why do you think that?
  38. 38. afavour||context
    Their financials are an utter mess. But they’re also hyped enough that a lot of money will get invested in them. Should they crash a lot of money will be lost.
  39. 39. AJRF||context
    Yeah, part of me wonders how much of it is shared delusion and how much is just cut throat racing for the exits.

    Even if the tech + business fundamentals don't match reality, there's just so momentum in favor of a "win" here.

    What we have today is interesting tech, with many, many applications - but the path to the kinds of things mentioned in this prospectus have no clear path, it seems like scaling laws are plateauing, but those invested speak as if it's a foregone conclusion we get AI we see in science fiction movies.

    There is a good documentary called "All Watched Over by Machines of Loving Grace" which documents how computing started, the touted benefits (it would fix society, all illnesses, liberate humanity from work) - and the slow decline in optimism towards what we have today. I feel like AI will play out the same way.

  40. 40. runako||context
    Say more about that? The economics look better than I was expecting.
  41. 41. happa||context
    Money is not lost, it merely changes hands.
  42. 42. flyinglizard||context
    It does get lost. Market cap can appear and vanish out of thin air. It's not a zero sum game, not remotely.
  43. 43. peterdsharpe||context
    This would have been true until ~50-200 years ago, and the advent of modern capital markets. Now, credit is center stage and cash is the sideshow.
  44. 44. saberience||context
    How are they a mess? They look amazing honestly, and I work in an office surrounded by experts in analyzing statements like this.
  45. 45. clarkdale||context
    We already had the most consequential IPO with SpaceX.
  46. 46. ashkankiani||context
    I love reading through the comment history of people like you
  47. 47. typeofhuman||context
    Not sure why this is getting downvoted - other than for Musk-hate. Was largest IPO and made lots of regular people millionaires over night.
  48. 48. bix6||context
    Which regular people?
  49. 49. cosmic_quanta||context
    I imagine employees
  50. 50. bix6||context
    So the janitors are millionaires? Or just all the college educated people?
  51. 51. wippler||context
  52. 52. bix6||context
    I think you’re discounting welders a bit but nice to see them getting stock.
  53. 53. origini||context
    Your evaluation of an IPO is if it made random people rich over night?

    1. no thats called gambling

    2. if it made random people rich over night, it made random people also poorer. Either the retirement funds, a 401k investment, real humans etc. Money is not created out of thin air.

    The largest IPO though for sure correct, but yes, Tesla and Space-X live quite a lot from Musk so its hard to determine what the IPO of Space-x really is.

    Btw. its not just random Musk hate, you simpllify that. Not only doesn't he care that his DOGE actions killed humans and kids, he also disrupts democracy and might poisen our atmosphere with Space-X. The rationallity of people around Musk is very very weird.

  54. 54. origini||context
    Space-X is as weird as Tesla. Cult following makes that very irrasional.

    Teslas evaluation was always "Tesla is not a car company, it does everything". Then Space-X came along "So Tesla and Space-x are not a car or rocket company, they do everything but now 2 times the evaluation".

    Space-X would only work if they incresae the payload to space SIGNIFICANTLY. Starlink was the real reason for the last real relevant increase in payload but Space-X HAS to send Starship un there very very often but for what?

    Yeah for Datacenters in Space.

    In parallel you have Anthropic: Something which might be added to every single worker on the planet (by having tokens to help that one person to be better one way or the other) or it replaces humans with tokens globally.

    And if you come with Grok: Its not Frontier and he even prefered to rent out his DC compute instead of leveraging it for more revenue because he can't. Not a good sign.

  55. 55. colonelpopcorn||context
    Why not both?
  56. 56. sapphire4||context
    Bonds time.
  57. 57. ChaseRensberger||context
    this should be fun
  58. 58. rationalist||context
    I was too young to appreciate (denotative, not connotative) the dotcom crash. I will have my popcorn ready this time - for whichever direction it goes.
  59. 59. prolly97||context
    Adding a zero to revenue every year is wild. Regardless of whether you like Anthropic.
  60. 60. 34679||context
    That's not so hard when you're also adding zeros to the funding.
  61. 61. JumpCrisscross||context
    > not so hard when you're also adding zeros to the funding

    Plenty of counter-examples, including the entire dot-com era.

  62. 62. 34679||context
    If revenue growth was all that mattered, you could just sell investor dollars for $0.50.
  63. 63. trollbridge||context
    99¢-Theranos style is better. Takes a lot longer for investors to notice.
  64. 64. jacquesm||context
    If you think that's the bar: it's been done, many times over. The unit-cost-profitability test was ignored by many VCs (they learned something and if they had deep enough pockets they got to play again).
  65. 65. JumpCrisscross||context
    > If revenue growth was all that mattered

    Straw man. Nobody argued this. What was falsely stated at the start was turning investor dollars into revenue is easy.

    I specifically went into unit economics elsewhere [1].

    [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50243393

  66. 66. Zigurd||context
    Cisco is definitely not a counter example. They survived, but they could be a template for what will happen to OpenAI and/or Anthropic.
  67. 67. boringg||context
    WHAT? Not so hard? Clearly written by someone who comments from the sidelines.

    Growth at that scale is hard. I don't care if you don't like the company - it still hard.

  68. 68. menshiki||context
    Yes, it is
  69. 69. brainwad||context
    14x YoY revenue growth, with 3x lower operating losses (total, not per unit). They don't need to add any zeros to the funding and seem like they might even be operating at a profit soon...
  70. 70. jfckenfishf||context
    Isn't the rate of growth already flattening? Most companies are already cracking down on excessive token spend and setting up pretty low limits.

    And some of the big spenders have their own models.

  71. 71. internetter||context
    2.2% of U.S. HOUSEHOLDS are subscribed to AI
  72. 72. elixirnogood||context
    do we know how much are they paying on average? I just got Gemini Plus that seems sufficient for my family's ordinary usage and it's $37 per year (3 bucks / month). I just don't see the AI companies making any serious money with this type of pricing.
  73. 73. JDups||context
    What's the token spend ratio between a household vs a software developer? If the future customer growth comes from regular households I don't think very much of them will spend nearly as much.
  74. 74. bko||context
    The S-1 is already out of date. Q3 revenue is $16.8b compared to $11.6b in Q2 (reflected in the S1).

    I get why revenue blew up from say from Q4 2025 to Q1 2026, but this was surprising. 45% QoQ growth. When does it stop?

  75. 75. baq||context
    Now, hence IPO.
  76. 76. weieq2211||context
    Correct.

    You buying at the inflated price I take? Much of your posts are pro AI - yes this is a test

  77. 77. baq||context
    Yes, I'm buying. Alphabet.
  78. 78. kurthr||context
    Wait, it fell from 140% growth to 45% growth and that's a good thing? If they fall to 15% growth in Q4, will that be even better? Where are we supposed to be on the adoption curve?
  79. 79. throwa356262||context
    IMO we are already at the enshitfication stage.

    Anthropic increased short term profits by jacking up their prices for enterprise accounts - by starting charging API prices instead of plan prices. It is possible we soon see customers fleeing Anthropic once they find a good alternative

  80. 80. datadrivenangel||context
    Yeah, everyone I know paying enterprise prices is really looking at them wondering if it's worth it. Most of them think it is, but they're also looking at alternatives...
  81. 81. nemonemo||context
    It does not seem as bad as it sounds like. The numbers are quarter-by-quarter and the market is fluctuating day-by-day basis. To me, growing in this fierce market by 45% qoq seems amazing by itself.
  82. 82. jacquesm||context
    > When does it stop?

    Roughly a week after Dario has rung the bell. Note that the growth in absolute sense hasn't peaked yet but the curve itself is already flattening and everybody with some sense for stock prices will read that as a very relevant signal.

    The party that wins here is NV, Anthropic, not so much. But that's good then Dario and his sister can go back to improving the world. Let's hope they take Altman with them.

  83. 83. Noaidi||context
    Not so wild when you add two zeros to hardware-related liabilities...
  84. 84. ivanjermakov||context
    It will be even more wild when investors will notice growth slowing down.
  85. 85. epsteingpt||context
    $81B net loss in first 6 months of 2026 alone. Linked discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50243002
  86. 86. alex_c||context
    Driven mostly by "Change in fair value of convertible notes, derivative liabilities, and SAFEs".

    If you're going to make a point, make your point - don't just throw numbers around without context.

  87. 87. nilamo||context
    Wait what does THAT mean? They got a huge inflow of money, and since they couldn't spend it all, they... bought bonds? And the value of those bonds dropped to nearly nothing?

    Because that's worse than losing money, that's incompetently giving it away.

  88. 88. santah||context
    No, that's the result of their own (private) shares being worth more (which they owe to 3rd parties).

    It's a good problem to have.

  89. 89. jfrbfbreudh||context
    Yes, let’s all just take wild guesses at what this means instead of just looking it up.
  90. 90. alex_c||context
    That's the discussion I WOULD like to see on HN, rather than "omg $81B net loss".

    My understanding is the opposite - Anthropic issued debt / liabilities tied to their company valuation, their company valuation skyrocketed, so the value of their liabilities also skyrocketed, resulting in a large accounting loss.

    But finance is not my wheelhouse, so I would love to hear this from someone who actually knows what they're talking about.

  91. 91. runako||context
    Inclusion of SAFEs makes this IMHO the most plausible explanation.

    I do not expect to find that Anthropic invested enough in the SAFEs of other companies to lose $80B on their investments.

  92. 92. jfrbfbreudh||context
    Yes, it is analogous to selling covered calls on stock. It’s $72B in “lost profits” that they would have had had they held onto it instead of selling it.
  93. 93. npilk||context
    You are correct. Matt Levine discussed this in more detail in his last column (scroll down to the Anthropic section): https://wallhop.io/https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/newslet...
  94. 94. Pragmata||context
    They agreed to pay some employees in their own shares to be delivered some time later. They recorded that expense then as a liability. The value of the shares increased because the company became more valuable, and therefore that liability needs to be revalued by 72 billion.

    It's a nice problem to have and is pretty much an accounting artifact coming from the fact that they are paying in different currencies (USD and shares)

  95. 95. andxor||context
    You won't hear Ed Zitron talk about that
  96. 96. epsteingpt||context
    According to "Generally Accepted Accounting Principle" my friend.

    They are costs.

    Derivative liabilities, SAFEs - those are basically taking cash from RETAIL shareholders and giving them to employees and early investors INSTEAD of using it to fund the business.

    Let's have that discussion if you want, but don't act like a thing that is CLEARLY a COST to the business isn't a cost.

  97. 97. epsteingpt||context
    principles* (GAAP)
  98. 98. brainwad||context
    SAFEs work like equity in the upside case, and nobody ever says that it costs a company money when its stock price goes up and so its shareholders have more money. It's a bug in GAAP that if there's even a remote possibility of cash settlement, it has to be included on the income statement, even when that possibility is absurd, as it is here.
  99. 99. vanuatu||context
    Huh? what retail shareholders?
  100. 100. alex_c||context
    Okay, so expand on that.

    How do we expect this $72B number to change over time - especially after the IPO? Is it a one-time event, will it keep increasing by $xxB per quarter?

    When and how will the "chickens come home to roost", so to speak? What's the timeline on these liabilities? Will Anthropic need to settle them in cash, or in shares after a potential IPO?

    How big is this number compared to Anthropic's potential market cap and share float?

    I'm not trying to make a specific point, by the way, that Anthropic's business is healthy or unhealthy.

    I'm approaching this discussion with curiosity, and irritated that "$81B net loss in first 6 months of 2026 alone" is a thought-terminating simplification that makes no attempt to analyze or explain the actual situation.

  101. 101. Rury||context
    The $72B number is just for convertible notes sold prior and through 1st half of 2026. They were issued as a way to finance growth costs (e.g. acquiring compute).

    There might be some additional sold in Q3, but that wasn't published here. But these notes aren't costs that Anthropic has to pay in any normal sense - they're shares they sold pre-IPO and valued at $72B. Anthropic would have to pay that much to buy them back at said valuation price, but they're not obligated in any way to do that.

    Post IPO, they'll have alternative avenues for sourcing funds... (e.g. secondary offerings, corporate bonds). Continued growth at this rate will need continued financing, but it wouldn't be done using convertible notes.

    The real liabilities are the hundreds of billions in non-cancelable compute costs Anthropic owes Google, Amazon etc, over the course of the next 10 years.

  102. 102. matt3210||context
    You're arguing with Opus my friend.
  103. 103. BeetleB||context
    People keep bringing it up and it's silly. The huge number is actually a sign of their success. Most of those losses were pegged to equity. In only mildly inaccurate layman terms, it's essentially a promise to give out N shares. When the value of the company increases, say, 10x, the value owed also goes up 10x. For these types of deals, they write it as a loss even though they didn't lose a penny.

    They didn't lose any money, though. It's just a promise to give them based on the equity.

    If they IPO tomorrow and it turns out their valuation is 10x lower than what it currently is pegged at, the "loss" will magically drop from over $70B to $7B.

  104. 104. rvz||context
    We are nearing the final stages of the AI hype cycle and this IPO will cause the acceleration of the crash.

    "AGI" was never mentioned once and it was you being the exit liquidity for the insiders and early investors.

  105. 105. origini||context
    Why?

    Companies like Google will not go bust and can easily afford future develoopment.

    Amazon and Microsoft have to keep investing (they can also afford it) to not loos to Google.

    What Anthropic and OpenAI are doing is for sure THE frontier (regarding benchmarks, speed etc.) but in paralllel DeepSeek for sure is not bankcrupting anything on their investment side and are also progressing.

    Are you only talking about investment itself for a handful of companies? Because alone Nvidia has so many backorders, they can't deliver wht was ordered for the full 2027 and A LOT of peple also want other things from Nvidia or from the industry like Gaming Chips, normal GPUs, Gaming GPUs, Memory etc.

    Opus 5.5 just came out and made progress, i'm not seeing any slowdonw on HN regarding new relevant progress in broad ML topics.

    So what hype will disappear soon? The progress in the ML space?

  106. 106. metobehonest||context
    Two things can be true at once:

    - AI is a useful tool and we're still seeing steady improvements in performance and efficiency

    - There is a bubble in the stock market, fed by unrealistic expectations of what AI can achieve in the timeframes the investments need to provide returns in (e.g "AI is pretty useful and delivers productivity improvements in coding, law and other desk jobs" vs "in 12 months everyone will be out of a job and/or humanity will be exterminated, AGI is almost here, winner takes all")

    So yeah, the schizophrenic Yudkowsky tier hype bullshit should hopefully disappear soon and then we can move on to something else.

  107. 107. origini||context
    Some thinktank estimated that there is enough money in the system for reaching 2030 with continues investment.

    There are a few numbers of scaling laws, i'm pretty sure VCs want to see being hit. Just to see what will happen when you scale an LLM to 100T Parmeters.

  108. 108. JacobAsmuth||context
    Okay so you agree that big companies can keep funding this buildout, NVidia (and everyone in their supply chain) is backlogged 18+ months, and there's essentially zero risk of insolvency from any of the major customers, all of whom are committed and able to increase their purchasing (pursuant to their contractual obligations) of AI hardware over the next 3 years?

    No one serious cares if there's a bubble in the stock market because the financials are solid and when those play out then whatever "bubble" you imagine exists today will be small compared to realized revenues in a few years.

  109. 109. metobehonest||context
    >No one serious cares if there's a bubble in the stock market because the financials are solid

    If the financials were "solid" it wouldn't be called a bubble. People are pointing to the bubble saying it's a bubble exactly because the financials are not solid and the expected revenue that would make the valuations and investments make sense is vaporware.

  110. 110. JacobAsmuth||context
    People are calling it a bubble because they dont understand the financials.
  111. 111. metobehonest||context
    So Warren Buffet and Michael Burry don't understand fundamental analysis and stock market patterns?
  112. 112. JacobAsmuth||context
    1. One of Warren Buffet's final acts before stepping down was buying billions of dollars of Google stock. Of course he understands fundamental analysis, that's why he's buying in to one of the companies that have solid financials.

    2. Burry has repeatedly made claims about semiconductors and semiconductor manufacturers that even the most rabid anti-ai industry expert would tell him were false. He also has made dozens if not hundreds of predictions of impending doom that simply did not come true and in fact had to shutter his fund last year due to massive losses.

  113. 113. wolttam||context
    The financials depend on revenue that isn’t materializing because:

    - the utility of the models is not that great (see almost every company outside of tech and even many within tech reporting “no measurable increased revenue or productivity as a result of adopting the technology”.

    - China has been undercutting them hard with open-weight models that are “good enough” for 95%+ of use-cases, leaving only the hardest problems for OpenAI and Anthropic’s models, which it turns out isn’t where there is a ton of money to made (curing various forms of cancer is valuable but not “let’s dump trillions on these companies” valuable - and once their models can solve it, it probably won’t be long before others do too).

    People want these models on their own hardware. People will (eventually) want these models running on robots that can do real work for them, and they won’t want those things tethered to an insecure and privacy eviscerating cloud subscription.

    The money to be made is in selling hardware, as it should be.

    Anthropic’s S1 still shows them not even breaking even on revenue/expenses during what was probably their biggest year of adoption, right before people started going “oh, I can do this with an open model”

    I’m not saying anything new here. What are we missing?

  114. 114. itomato||context
    Whomever controls the means of production (TSMC) controls the direction of progress.

    Nobody is in control but Taiwan Semiconductor. Not Samsung, not Micron, not Nvidia.

    Orders that can't be fulfilled get canceled. Canceled orders mean canceled plans and canceled companies follow.

    Someone bigger will buy the husk and monetize it somehow - probably for gambling.

  115. 115. origini||context
    Sure but thats not the current stauts quo. Nvidia has the chips and the money to pay TSMC.

    No one else has and in this current setup, the disurption of this particular market is very very very very expensive and time consuming.

  116. 116. empath75||context
    Anthropic's valuation has nothing to do with AGI and everything to do with claude code.
  117. 117. staticman2||context
    Why do you expect it to crash before the OpenAI IPO?
  118. 118. desterothx||context
    Well the good part is they didn't get an investment grade credit rating, so at least 401ks won't start buying their debt automatically. For now...
  119. 119. helsinkiandrew||context
    It mentions "humanity" 21 times.
  120. 120. clarkdale||context
    1,258 occurrences of emdash "—"