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Aug 28 13:41 UTC

U.S. State Department pauses immigrant visa applications (wsj.com)

813 points|by sss111||1,355 comments|Read full story on wsj.com

Comments (1355)

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  1. 1. totallygeeky||context
    The US seems hellbent on destroying its own economy, immigrants have always played a key part in it. Looking forward to Trump yelling about how the radical left has somehow undermined the US economy in a few months.
  2. 2. reaperducer||context
    Everything is someone else's fault. The buck never stops with him.
  3. 3. nielsbot||context
    I’d guess Miller is the main driver of this given what we know about that loser (and freak).
  4. 4. timcobb||context
    Huge freak
  5. 5. dogsgobork||context
    I often think about how far the Republican party has fallen from Truman with his "The Buck Stops Here" plaque on his desk to Trump's "I don't take any responsibility at all" response to poor Covid testing in 2020.
  6. 6. FireBeyond||context
    Meanwhile, just this week, he's taking credit for Biden's legislative efforts on cost reductions for pharmaceuticals that every single Republican voted against, and Trump campaigned against.
  7. 7. something98||context
    Truman was a Democrat.
  8. 8. retvrn||context
    Plus he outright stole government money, not even the pretense of some kind of pass-through contracting entity or something, just brazenly stole cash. And later went on a PR tour lying about being destitute to get Congress to give him a big pension (presidents didn’t get one before that; and he was doing quite alright financially without it).

    Whatever the party affiliation, he was an actual thief and scam-artist at the public’s expense, so wouldn’t be a great example of some high water mark for public service.

  9. 9. geodel||context
    Well, others can bent in other direction and boost their economy by taking in all immigrants that were US bound.
  10. 10. forgetfreeman||context
    And they are. I read somewhere a few days ago that France is vacuuming up academics and advanced students that have been displaced by various recent policy changes that have proven to be hostile towards academia and research.
  11. 11. dnautics||context
    As a former academic scientist, I suspect it's not gonna work out like they think it will--the process will self select for mostly lemons.
  12. 12. Terr_||context
    Looking forward? He never stopped. It's been 10+ years of narcissistic scapegoating, even for times when he was President, even while Republicans controlled congress, and even over trade-deals, policies, and laws that he took-credit for and bragged about. (e.g. USMCA in 2020.)

    > Without words said, a wave of understanding rippled through the crowd. Oceania was at war with Eastasia! The next moment there was a tremendous commotion. The banners and posters with which the square was decorated were all wrong! Quite half of them had the wrong faces on them. It was sabotage! The agents of Goldstein had been at work!

    -- 1984

  13. 13. bakies||context
    Most damage will be realized after he's dead
  14. 14. FireBeyond||context
    And in the interim he's positioning his family and cronies to benefit from any rebuilding. Just as he literally sat in the White House and said, verbatim, "My children insider trade all the time".
  15. 15. gnuplustoejam||context
    > closed for training

    So like the DMV then?

  16. 16. OutOfHere||context
  17. 17. OutOfHere||context
    As noted clearly in the article, this is a temporary pause while personnel are brought up to speed on the protocols. The real question is how just or unjust the refusals will be once it is unpaused. It's bad enough that the process is excruciatingly slow.

    Users keep downvoting my comment even though it is the only literal interpretation supported by the evidence, without any evidence to the contrary. I would rethink only if it lasts over three months.

    Note also that courts would easily overrule Trump if the pause became unreasonable.

  18. 18. DataDive||context
    Or as the saying goes: nothing is more permanent than a temporary solution.
  19. 19. orthecreedence||context
    Also, lol @ "the courts will fix it!" Fat fucking chance. I'm looking into my crystal ball: I see a 6-3 supreme court ruling supporting the administration's executive order to liquidate congressional power and fold it into the executive branch (as the founding fathers intended...)
  20. 20. OutOfHere||context
    If you believe such nonsense, go bet on it on Polymarket. Put your money where your mouth is. Don't post such ridiculous assertions here.
  21. 21. eviks||context
    You're obviously wrong, it obviously doesn't make sense to close down instead is implementing the training for the new protocols in parallel. And the current disruption is just as real of a question as the future refusals. And obviously courts couldn't do it easily.

    By the way, you also haven't provided any evidence for your opinion, why would you burden type replies with it?

  22. 22. OutOfHere||context
    The evidence is the title and the content of the article, so read it. I am not the one to jump to conclusions.
  23. 23. FireBeyond||context
    Consular staff are trained on this as-is. It is hard to imagine a re-training on process that could take any more than two days.

    And yet we have an entirely open-ended "We have nooooo idea how long this will take!"

    Garbage. This is the same administration that paused all immigration from Africa except for "Caucasian South Africans" who were classified as refugees by default, regardless of their motivation on immigration.

    This is just Stephen Miller doing exactly what he said he intended to do, and exactly what Project 2025 said the government should do (meanwhile, Trump, "What's that? Never heard of it").

  24. 24. orthecreedence||context
    > "We have nooooo idea how long this will take!"

    It will take about two weeks. Is that right, two weeks? We'll have it done in about two weeks I'm told by some, very intelligent people.

  25. 25. BatFastard||context
    What will be next in Trump's destruction of the American Economy?

    So far he has driven away allies, put huge tariff on our most loyal allies. Driven away manufacturing by tariff policies. Driven away immigrants and academics. Pushed a last century oil based economy. Shown us how our exquisite weapon tech will fail (this might actually be good in the long run). Along with crippling our cybersecurity and state departments.

  26. 26. Jare||context
    Well at least you're healt... oh wait.
  27. 27. cosmicgadget||context
    Replacing Lisa Cook or Jerome Powell and cutting rates to 0.
  28. 28. tialaramex||context
    It's funniest if the economic collapse begins with Republicans still in power everywhere to pretend that things are fine. Once Democrats are elected, even if they're not actually doing anything yet and so couldn't plausibly have any role in the problem the US media will insist it's their fault which is very boring to watch.
  29. 29. cosmicgadget||context
    I think we are primed for the doublethink with six months of Iran being totally defeated and the Strait of Hormuz being open.

    But yeah, as we saw with covid, cutting rates and qe now means markets surge now and $15 burritos in three years.

  30. 30. hvb2||context
    So for those that don't know, it's quite common for a visa renewal to be required to leave the country. Depending on the visa, you might have to do this every year.

    So just imagine, having a normal job in the US and you're asked to leave to renew your visa and this stuff happens.

    That's no more appointment, not even a new date and you're now very likely unable to work and possibly can't even enter the country to get your belongings if you were to leave.

    Just 'putting a pause' on people with existing appointments with no answer for when they might resume is.... Inhumane

  31. 31. apercu||context
    In Canada I had to leave and re-enter for my permanent resident status to complete. It’s not that uncommon - but it’s a pain.
  32. 32. PierceJoy||context
    OP isn't criticizing the practise of leaving to renew. He's criticizing the this new policy of not letting you back in when you leave.
  33. 33. smnrchrds||context
    In Canada you never have to leave to renew or change status; it's just sometimes faster to do so. It's always the applicant's choice. I went through the whole work permit to PR to citizenship pipeline without ever having to leave the country.
  34. 34. sanswork||context
    I'm not sure if its the same in Canada but when I went through the process for Australia it depended on where you started the process. I started the process while outside the country so to activate my visa I had to leave and come back but if I had filed while in the country I could have stayed.

    I do remember Canada telling my partner she wouldn't be guaranteed reentry while they were processing her PR visa until it was finalised if we left the country though so we just ended up doing the Australian half first and I never went back.

  35. 35. flamedoge||context
    ... It's always applicant's choice
  36. 36. euio757||context
    > I went through the whole work permit to PR to citizenship pipeline without ever having to leave the country.

    You're comparing apples to oranges.

    People going from non-immigrant visa (H1B, F1 etc.) to Green card via i485 "adjustment of status" do not need to leave the country either.

    Only consular processing (ds 260) are in scope of this pause

    https://www.ellis.com/resources/immigrant-visa-pause-2026

    Has more details than the paywalled article

  37. 37. arjie||context
    Yeah, but they tried to change Adjustment of Status too.

    https://www.uscis.gov/newsroom/news-releases/us-citizenship-...

    I don't think the practice of the change is significant. Reddit has numerous stories of people who are still receiving it, so whatever that release says, things haven't changed. People seem to be receiving AoS based Green Cards the same way I did under the Biden Administration. It does seem to be a bit more uncertain which is always troubling.

  38. 38. smnrchrds||context
    I had a study permit at first. I renewed my permit, got a work permit, renewed my foreign passport and extended my work permit, got PR and got citizenship, getting visas to match my work and study permits, over a period of 10 years, without ever having to leave Canada. So my experience is that in Canada you never have to leave but in the US you do.

    My classmates who had gone to the US for PhD programs, even those who were fortunate enough to get multiple entry visas, had visas that allowed re-entry for only the first two years of the PhD program. After that, if they wanted to leave the US, say for a conference or to visit family, they would have had to apply for a visa from abroad and hope to be granted one. In Canada, I could apply for the visa and get it while in Canada. Even comparing like with like, the American system seems bizarre to me, looking at it from a Canadian lens.

  39. 39. apercu||context
    I did it 20+ years ago and I had to “land”. They’ve relaxed a lot of immigration rules since then so it might have changed.
  40. 40. kashunstva||context
    Really? My spouse and I lived in Canada on work permits and were not required to leave in order to achieve PR status; nor to achieve citizenship status.
  41. 41. jbm||context
    Prior to Covid, my wife had to exit the country to get photos taken as part of the permanent resident process. We took a trip to Montana for that purpose.

    This seems to have changed in the past 3-4 years, but as the GP said, the original process did involve leaving.

  42. 42. apercu||context
    Thanks. And yea, my PR was in 2004. Citizen now but living in the US again.
  43. 43. fidotron||context
    "Flagpoling" was the beautiful euphemism for this.
  44. 44. prepend||context
    I have friends who are expats and they’ve done this for years. I had one family member who left every six months to renew their visa.

    It’s a chore, but very common around the world.

  45. 45. yibg||context
    Were they able to come back when they did this?
  46. 46. goodluckchuck||context
    I think the whole point of making someone leave is the possibility that they may not be allowed back in. If staying was a foregone conclusion then there’d be no point in leaving.
  47. 47. klardotsh||context
    I can’t think of any other rationale. What, only border officers are able to process a visa renewal? Please. We can have offices inside the country handle this stuff, just like offices handle Trusted Traveler applications and Social Security card issuances.

    The point is surely to get another chance to grill the immigrant and potentially bar them entry. Other countries don’t always do this: Canada for example has inland changes of status and I believe renewals.

  48. 48. dmix||context
    > I can’t think of any other rationale.

    Lack of real domestic enforcement would be an obvious one, so everything gets pushed to the border entry points.

  49. 49. fn-mote||context
    They know who you are and where you work… how hard could it be to enforce rules?

    Wait, what’s getting enforced here, anyway? They are getting a new visa, no? I don’t believe this rationale at all.

  50. 50. achierius||context
    No, not necessarily. Sometimes visas are rejected. Unless you're talking about giving everyone who gets a visa a green card?
  51. 51. 15155||context
    > They know who you are and where you work

    Most visas don't permit their holder to work.

    > Wait, what’s getting enforced here, anyway?

    The visa holder is forced to expend nominal financial resources and time in their home country (where they agreed they would return to.) Most people can't afford to maintain a facade of residency or two actual residences (and those who can aren't the intended targets of this type of restriction.)

  52. 52. aveao||context
    You do not need to do it in your "home country" at all, though, is the thing. People plan vacations around appointments they manage to land for this, in countries they want to go for their summer holidays.

    Additionally, it doesn't really do that either, you don't need a valid visa (only valid status) if you don't plan to leave and re-enter US, so this mainly forces people to stay within US rather than going elsewhere for visiting family, vacation and whatnot. I'd not be surprised if the net effect was less time/money spent in "home country".

  53. 53. nomel||context
    > how hard could it be to enforce rules?

    See the recent events and pushback on immigration enforcement, to answer this, with whole cities (with their judicial system and police) refusing to participate, and governors condemning enforcement.

  54. 54. mrguyorama||context
    Those cities had very little problem when Obama was deporting millions.

    Almost like what I have an actual problem with isn't deporting illegal immigrants, but armed thugs kidnapping citizens, harassing my neighbors, and murdering several citizens

    Our police department hired a guy, did a background check, yup, he can be here legally. So of course ICE tracks him down and abducts him for a month. That drove our sheriff, who is not fucking liberal, to basically say "Uh, what the fuck, how can you possibly be this incompetent?"

    If you have actual evidence of some kind that a human being does not have their paperwork in order, the correct thing is to give them a summons, get a judge to declare them not legal, and deport them. Very simple.

    If your complaint is that too many immigrants just come back, then we should try enforcing the law against hiring illegal immigrants which we put on the books under Reagan, 50 years ago, and have never enforced because it hurts the profits of well connected Agriculture industry people.

    Why hasn't Trump done that? Why hasn't Trump done the one thing everyone involved has suggested for decades, which is known to be the primary reason immigrants come here? Why did Trump tell Republicans to reject the Boarder bill proposed by democrats in 2024? One which absolutely would have provided more funding for the boarder?

  55. 55. nomel||context
    > Those cities had very little problem when Obama was deporting millions.

    Incorrect. They were "sanctuary" cities during Obama, as well.

    > the correct thing is to give them a summons, get a judge to declare them not legal, and deport them.

    Correct, and this is a popular right wing perspective. You should look into this more. These sanctuary cities and states are specifically against this. They release people with deportation orders back into the public, and ban city and state employees from helping. See "California sanctuary state laws" and "sanctuary city list".

    > Almost like what I have

    This isn't relevant.

  56. 56. 15155||context
    > I can’t think of any other rationale.

    For many visas, people are expected to maintain a home that they intend to return to in their country of origin. Forcing people to leave every once in a while makes this more likely (at least in theory.)

  57. 57. pstuart||context
    They've made no secret of the desire to purge the country of "others". This is part of that plan.
  58. 58. 15155||context
    "Must leave to renew" certain visas has been policy for decades - through at least the Clinton, Obama, and Biden administrations.

    Most visas are for temporary guests: obtaining a visa doesn't normally give someone the right to permanently reside, and most don't permit their holders to work.

  59. 59. pstuart||context
    Prior administrations were not full-throated nativists. Having a presidential campaign promise of mass deportation (happily consumed by The Base) is proof positive of the mindset of this administration.
  60. 60. iamjackg||context
    Not sure if things have changed recently, but up until at least 2019 (last time I had to do it iirc) you definitely had to do a "flagpole" (drive through the border and immediately turn back) to change your status in Canada.
  61. 61. mattkrause||context
    Nah, you can renew work permits online—-and in fact, they push you to.

    However, the in-country processing takes 6 months while the flagpole option (If you’re eligible) takes 15 minutes.

  62. 62. jimmydorry||context
    Canada effectively requires leaving and re-entering. It can take multiple months for an online visa to get processed, meanwhile leaving and reentering takes hours.
  63. 63. Scoundreller||context
    there were other dumb factors pushing people to do border runs, like your paperwork says "expired" but your status still being valid while being processed.

    Except you had zero paperwork to show to an employer and they had no way to verify themselves. Even if an employer understood the process and accepted some proof that you submitted an application, they would have no idea if you were rejected and became out-of-status.

  64. 64. preg_match||context
    Maybe stimulating the airline economy? Is Big Plane at it again?
  65. 65. aveao||context
    Isn't there's a special case with Canada where you can return within x days even if your visa has expired, if your status is valid? Many go there for "consular processing" for that reason if I recall correctly.
  66. 66. BrandoElFollito||context
    In the EU you do not need to leave to renew your visa. I don't know how common it is elsewhere.
  67. 67. retired||context
    Visa rules are country specific and don’t apply to the EU in general. There are countries that require you to leave.
  68. 68. BrandoElFollito||context
    Do you have any examples? I expected Schengen to have a common set of requirements regarding visas.
  69. 69. retired||context
    An Irish work holiday visa can only be requested from outside the country and has a maximum validity.

    https://enterprise.gov.ie/en/what-we-do/workplace-and-skills...

  70. 70. TazeTSchnitzel||context
    That's not a renewal. It's fairly standard for EU countries to require being outside the country to apply for a visa or residence permit when it is your first one, or (in some cases) when changing the type of visa or permit. But renewals never need you to leave.
  71. 71. BrandoElFollito||context
    An in addition Ireland is not part of Schengen
  72. 72. BrandoElFollito||context
    Ireland is not part of Schengen.
  73. 73. pezezin||context
    Japan doesn't require you to leave either.
  74. 74. sega_sai||context
    Sorry, but that is not common around the world. Most countries do not have such a system. I.e. none of the EU/UK/Australia countries have that.
  75. 75. assemblyman||context
    Were the visas for the US? B1/B2?

    I know stuff like this happens for digital nomads in southeast asia or Schengen but the US generally doesn't approve of "visa runs".

  76. 76. davidlumley||context
    Visa renewals are processed at a US consulate. You can extend your status (ie you ability to legally be in the US) while staying in the US, but if you want to renew your visa (your ability to leave and re-enter) you need to visit a consulate and those only exist outside of the US.
  77. 77. assemblyman||context
    I was questioning the renewals every six months and asking about US visas which are granted for 6 months (i.e. expire after 6 months). I am aware of renewals requiring leaving the country.
  78. 78. dgellow||context
    Is it? You’re generally able to renew without leaving. Unless you mean abusing a visitor visa?
  79. 79. aveao||context
    Common around the world? I'd be curious what other countries require this, pretty much everywhere else I know has you renew your status within the country (incl. US), and they give you some form of proof of residence that takes the place of a visa (excl. US).

    In many cases I've seen this is either a sticker on your passport (incl. possibly a visa) or a physical card, and does not require traveling abroad for it for "consular processing". This is the case for Schengen countries, Canada, UK, Australia, Japan, Thailand, etc.

  80. 80. y-curious||context
    Thailand explicitly requires you to leave the country. There are companies that specialize in bussing expats to nearby countries.
  81. 81. jpgvm||context
    The so called "visa runs" are for getting around not having the appropriate visa.

    I was on a proper employment visa 8 years, never needed to leave the country.

  82. 82. aveao||context
    No, you can extend your visa at the local immigration bureau if you have the appropriate type (that lets you work, though even tourist visas are extendable¹) and pay the cost².

    People who do visa runs are doing so to extend their tourist visas for cheap.

    ¹: I've done it before at Si Racha Immigration Bureau. In my case it was more expensive than doing a visa run or paying the fine for 3 days of overstaying, but it was less hassle and left a positive/neutral mark on my passport, not a suspicious one.

    ²: This can sadly also require bribery just to get them to do their job, even if you do everything by the book. People around us were bringing bribes in form of food. We weren't asked for a bribe, probably because the person I was traveling and applying with had an official passport.

  83. 83. mlrtime||context
    Hong Kong and the UK at least when I lived there, had to leave and come back, easy in HK to go to China and come back with a fresh stamp.
  84. 84. glimshe||context
    In the mid 2000s, I had to leave the US for renewal while leaving all my hard assets behind. I had a plan in place in case I couldn't go back to the country, which did happen to some people. These people had their interviews, but they got held back outside the US, sometimes for months, waiting for the renewal process to finish. I had an immediate renewal, but was almost held back for some red tape reasons.

    This sucks but it isn't new, unfortunately.

  85. 85. dbspin||context
    The scale is new. Obviously a nightmare or even a tragedy for individual people that it happens at all. But this happening to (tens of?) thousands of people all at once is a whole different thing.
  86. 86. garbawarb||context
    Or imagine if an employee works for you and this happens to them.
  87. 87. nostrademons||context
    I've had a couple of reports that this applied to. It's incredibly disruptive. "I've got to fly back to India to renew my visa." "Okay, when will you be back?" "I have no idea, it depends when I can get an appointment. It could be next week, it might be in a month." "[State department] We're pausing all visa appointments." "Well fuck."

    Meanwhile I've got a tech lead who is 12 hours away from the rest of the team. He was at least willing to work US-East hours while in India (basically staying up all night and sleeping during the day), but there was a huge amount of management overhead and inconvenience for the employee involved.

  88. 88. assemblyman||context
    At least the procedure used to be that one would try to get an appointment at the US consulate in one's home country and then arrange the trip around it. Also, at least in my experience (but importantly, not with this administration) was that one was never required to leave the US.

    The main constraint is re-entry into the US and being able to travel outside the US. If one stayed here, there was no problem switching schools, programs, jobs, adjusting status to permanent residency or naturalization. On the other hand, for re-entry, one needs a valid visa stamped on a passport which necessitated a trip to one's home country. This stamping visit could be unpredictable.

    Ideally, one would like to travel freely to see family and friends but I see a lot of comments implying that one is forced to leave. It might be true now but a lot of comments here are conflating several issues together.

  89. 89. nostrademons||context
    The first time it happened (2023) it was a non-issue; he did exactly as you said, appointment happened as planned, and then he was back on his scheduled plane trip a week later.

    Everything post-2025 has been a shit-show. There's no predictability or clear guidance, either from our lawyers or from the state department.

    Predictability matters a lot in business. If you know what the procedure is and how long it will take, you can plan around it. If the rules change in the middle of the game you're left scrambling to keep up.

  90. 90. macintux||context
    Predictability flew out the window with the last election. I simply do not understand how any business leaders supported this, but I suppose the ability to bribe their way out of chaos was appealing.
  91. 91. nostrademons||context
    It's beneficial for the largest firms, the ones that can forge personal relationships with the administration, because it's detrimental to all other businesses. Competitive advantage and all that.
  92. 92. arecurrence||context
    I've worked at companies where we transfer people to Canada during periods like this in the same time zone. Sometimes they enjoy it so much they don't want to transfer back to the US.
  93. 93. georgeburdell||context
    Props to your coworker. In my office, they usually just work normal India hours and we have a 12+ hour delay for all communications.
  94. 94. DaSHacka||context
    Honestly, this is kind of the point. Making foreign labor so unbearably difficult to work with will force companies to hire domestically. At least, hire more domestic workers than they would have otherwise.
  95. 95. jimbo808||context
    Hire Americans?

    Hundreds of thousands of tech workers have been laid off in the last two years. There are many skilled Americans on the job market. Foreign workers are here for the benefit of the United States, not as charity to the rest of the world, or as a source of cheaper labor for global employers seeking to undercut American wages.

  96. 96. selcuka||context
    > Foreign workers are here for the benefit of the United States

    But that's the point, isn't it? Some foreign workers who "worked the US for the benefit of the US" are now unable to come back to the US. Isn't that bad for the US too?

  97. 97. 486sx33||context
    Not until all Americans who can work have jobs
  98. 98. ElProlactin||context
    And what do you do about the people who only want to work in jobs that they're not qualified for, and who have unrealistic expectations about pay, benefits, work demands, etc.?

    Is every natural-born American entitled to a job that pays what they want, for the hours they want, in the location they want, regardless of their qualifications for the job?

  99. 99. sandmn||context
    But isn't that how market supposed to work? Company offers to pay x for the job, can't find anyone for x, so it raises salary to x+y.

    I would understand logic of bringing people from other countries when there is a shortage of workers but with current market it doesn't seem to be the case.

  100. 100. ElProlactin||context
    > Company offers to pay x for the job, can't find anyone for x, so it raises salary to x+y.

    In the world you're imagining, is x+y potentially infinite?

  101. 101. g3f32r||context
    Is there a job you wouldn't do for potentially infinite dollars? Can you assert that to be true for hundreds of millions of Americans?
  102. 102. SmirkingRevenge||context
    Migrants don't really depress wages, except by a very marginal amount at the lowest skilled rung.

    That's because adding people to the economy creates more demand

    In times of recession, things might be different - but immigration tends to take care of itself in that regard. When a country has unfilled labor demand, immigration goes up. When it has no labor demand, immigration goes down.

  103. 103. RAMJAC||context
    I was homeless for 6 months, and wanted nothing else except for a job that can pay for basics. I still don't have dental, can't save any money, but I have a room with a lock. I worked from 5pm till 4:30 in the morning from covid until a year ago with zero benefits!

    Will I ever be able to retire, doubtful. Have a family, probably not. Are these personal failings I need to take responsibility for, absolutely. Still my expectations are very low and my earnings and lifestyle reflect this.

    Where do you want me to move? What job do you want me to take? What more do you want to take from me? Do I deserve less, more, just enough? Why do I have to listen to you about that?

    You have _no_ clue what you are talking about.

  104. 104. krapp||context
    But America is a capitalist system. The market has determined that not all Americans deserve jobs. Are Americans willing to work a 996 schedule for 2.00/hr to compete with labor overseas?
  105. 105. stale2002||context
    Nothing in capitalism prevents a country from prioritizing its own citizens.

    And it is uncontroversial in most countries that a country should do this.

    So this isn't a contradiction. Indeed america is capitalist. And it is also prioritizing its own citizens. There is nothing weird about that.

  106. 106. krapp||context
    Most capitalist countries have 100% employment for their citizens and little to no immigration? No. "Every citizen who can work having a job" is not something capitalist countries do. They all take ample advantage of foreign labor, they all have corporations that prioritize their own profits and outsource.
  107. 107. stale2002||context
    > Most capitalist countries have 100% employment for their citizens and little to no immigration

    You must have responded to the wrong post as it has nothing to do with my statement.

    That statement is that there is nothing about capitalism that prevents a country from prioritizing its own citizens. That is a perfectly normal and rational thing to do.

    Additionally, the exact percentages of unemployement rates also has little to do with capitalism, nor does the uncommonness of fully achieving a lofty but possibly valuable goal also has nothing to do with what capitalism is, nor does it say very much about how valuable that goal is or the value in attempting to aspirationally achieve it.

  108. 108. krapp||context
    >You must have responded to the wrong post as it has nothing to do with my statement.

    OK. You can't handle context, noted.

    >That statement is that there is nothing about capitalism that prevents a country from prioritizing its own citizens.

    The free market is what prevents it. The purpose of capitalism is the creation of capital and its transfer to the capitalist class, and the purpose of corporations is to maximize profits to facilitate that process as quickly and efficiently as possible. Neither capitalism as a system nor corporations have an obligation to improve quality of life for their employees beyond their market value, or to "prioritize" the social welfare over profit, or to hire more people than they need.

    It's simple supply and demand and there isn't a demand for American labor.

    >Additionally, the exact percentages of unemployement rates also has little to do with capitalism

    which is weird because you're arguing that capitalist companies need to prioritize "citizen" labor in order to reduce unemployment, or that governments need to force them to.

  109. 109. stale2002||context
    > Neither capitalism as a system nor corporations have an obligation to improve quality of life for their employees beyond their market value

    If by capitalism as a system, we are refering to countries that are capitalists, it seems fairly uncontroversial to say that such countries can prioritize their own citizens.

    It is not weird or controversial to say that countries, even capitalist ones, prioritize their citizens in certain cases, nor is it weird to suggest that they aught do so.

    > which is weird because you're arguing that capitalist companies need to prioritize "citizen" labor in order to reduce unemployment, or that governments need to force them to.

    I am suggesting that it is compatible with being a capitalist country, and is not weird, unusually, or bad to do such a common thing as prioritizing your own citizens.

    I wouldn't say that they need to. Merely that it is a normal and compatible, and in many cases desirable goal for said citizens.

  110. 110. Synthetic7346||context
    Capitalism is at odds with protectionism. Putting citizens above profits doesn't seem like a very capitalist thing to do. Not arguing against it, I'm all for socialism
  111. 111. stale2002||context
    > Putting citizens above profits doesn't seem like a very capitalist thing to do

    Do you... think that people who are pro capitalism believe that their own ideology is harmful? Obviously proponents of a belief think that their ideas and philosophy help their own citizens.

    > I'm all for socialism

    Thats only because you have definitionally defined socialism as "When you do things that are good", not realizing that other people think that their ideas are also good.

    The reason why people support capitalism is specifically because they think it is a good idea and benefits a country, and its citizens.

  112. 112. vachina||context
    If your business cannot survive paying more than slave labor rate, then a capitalist system dictates that your business should cease to exist or your resources allocated to more productive work.
  113. 113. krapp||context
    Capitalism is what capitalists do. No capitalist system dictates that, because that no capitalist system practices that. Wages don't increase with productivity anymore, the gap between the two has only increased since the 1970s.

    Capitalists come out of the woodwork to denounce things like the minimum wage or unions that distort the fair market value of labor because they want to pay as little as possible and not a cent more. Why do you think automation and outsourcing exist to begin with? Why are we putting Manhattan Project scale effort into AI? Wages are an inefficiency in the market that capitalism has always sought to ruthlessly optimize away.

  114. 114. totetsu||context
    Do you propose to restrict the international flow of capital too while you're at it? Until every spare US dollar is invested in the US? or you just want to restrict the market for the 99% of people whose biggest asset is their labor.
  115. 115. MisterMower||context
    Dollars and people are not the same thing. I’m not sure how you can even make the claim that they could be or even should be.
  116. 116. totetsu||context
    Thats the amazing part of a diverse society, there is a variety of opinions and world views that you can come across that that might even be completely outside your current understanding. As by being curious and trying to understand something surprising you might just gain a new and deeper understanding of the world.
  117. 117. MisterMower||context
    Most folks don’t want their minds opened to new and surprising views and opinions. They want a good job in the town they grew up in so they can take care of their family and raise their kids in the culture they were raised in.

    Globalism has ruined that entirely, and there’s no amount of implying these people are closed minded or incurious that will make them change their mind on this issue.

  118. 118. doug_durham||context
    It's clear you are not a hiring manager. There aren't thousands of highly qualified engineers looking for work. I can't tell if this a troll post or not.
  119. 119. logicchains||context
    They would be looking for work with you if you were offering them better pay and conditions than where they're currently working.
  120. 120. whatever1||context
    Money does not fix the supply problem the parent comment pointed out (at least for fields that need multi year training).

    Let’s say that tomorrow we need 1M nuclear physicists. How can money help? You still need to wait for the talent pipeline to divert.