There has been talk, but as one who hangs around those circles I've not heard of anyone actually doing it. But I'm sure someone is. At the same time, what I'm reading is that CGM won't give a non-diabetic any actionable information.
a regulated blood sugar level aids massively in cellular repair, inflammation reduction, and immune response. These are well studied and established. I could absolutely see a top athlete using AID in the future as part of a recovery routine, but I can also understand reluctance to adopt anything new or weird.
A few years back, there were a number of startups that essentially resold prescriptions of the ABT/DXCM CGM and provided personalized meal/exercise-response analytics on top. Seems like traction has been tough going, though. Dialing back from "anyone with potential metabolic issues" -- what's a realistic market? Something like high-level athletes and/or bio-hacker enthusiasts are the only folks who seem to care. On the low end, the OTC options are eating away as well.. they are less accurate, but probably solve the use case better for a pre-diabetic "once-a-year/occasional" wear use case.
Talking to ultramarathoners and cyclists, I think lactate is a biomarker that is tracked (POC blood samples) and would be more immediately useful for training/performance. AID might be construed as a form of doping, IMO.
Lactate actually comes for free with blood glucose when you measure it with a chemical sensor, it's just not something that's usually asked for. I definitely think it would be considered a form of doping to use it in competition, but I think recovery is where it would make more impact anyways. You also wouldn't want to use it before a race, as you'd run the risk of reduced pancreatic function.
AGC will find its main application in surgical and inpatient uses, eg in cardiac, neuro, burn, ICU, and people with diabetes in any hospital setting.
There doesn't seem to be a continuous lactate sensor on the market. Lactic acid production and/or clearance are definitely useful data w.r.t. exercise (many training regimens talk about lactate thresholds) and also useful in in-patient settings.
No disagreement about AGC in the hospital -- there is a lot of lab/titration work in current clinical workflows for monitoring patient glucose levels.
Lactate's available in the internal engineering data of these sensors, just not something that anyone has wanted to spend the time or money to qualify with the FDA. It essentially comes "for free" due to the chemical reaction the sensor uses.
I think you are misinformed: the electrochemical reaction used by continuous glucose sensors relies on a glucose-specific enzyme and it doesn't have anything to do with lactate. Lactic acid strips use a completely separate enzyme/reaction.
Hat tip to you and sibling comment about continouous lactate sensors (seem like they are microneedle/patch based?). Quick review shows minimal clinical evidence, but maybe that's sufficient for the consumer wearable market.
I've had the fortune to work with several CGM OEMs behind the scenes as part of our work developing an artificial pancreas, they all have a secret lactate signal!
There doesn't seem to be a continuous lactate sensor on the market.
They exist, a simple search will turn up a variety (how well they work is a different question). But see my sibling comment, they're banned from cycling competition.
To follow-up, "commercially available" products from a simple search appear to all be vaporware. I did see that cyclists have been estimating lactate thresholds through breathing rate/expiration volume measurements
I am aware of the "eating wins races" strategy for endurance sports.
Glucose and ketone monitoring seems a natural, more precise extension of that strategy. Isn't the point of carb-cramming to get more glucose into your blood stream, where your muscles can convert that into forward motion?
Yes. But you don't need to monitor glucose levels to do this. Because it's well known you can productively use as much as you could manage to consume (without vomiting). So all the device will ever tell you (if you're in the middle of significant endurance event) is that you need to raise your blood sugar. It'd be no more actionable than a writing 'your blood sugar is low' on your hand with a sharpie.
Monitoring glucose and ketones can help you develop metabolic flexibility and let you grok how easily your body cuts over to ketones. Knowing your personal realtime glucose and ketone levels helps you understand just how much carbs will kick you out of ketosis or keep you in it. Glucose monitoring will help you avoid large crashes that can lead to low energy. Among other things!
My understanding is that essentially all high-level endurance athletes are just maximizing their simple sugar intake at all times (during exercise) and knowing blood glucose/ketone levels wouldn't change anything about that intake, nor would it have any impact on crashes.
Not all. Some runners play around with doing fasted long runs to enhance fat burning adaptations. The jury is still out on if it is advisable to add to a training plan. Some utlra runners have taken to extremes.
Amateur cyclists already wear CGMs, and as a type 1 myself, they see mine and start asking all about CGMs. It must be so boring for them to worry about fluctuations between 85 and 120.
Automated glucose control will be the next frontier in so many areas of healthcare. I'm still skeptical that anyone will be able to noninvasively and accurately sense blood sugar, but I'm glad people (especially kids with T1) will have one more tool to help them. I hope they can figure out the reimbursement side to get it into the most hands possible!
Invasive CGMs (Continuous Glucose Monitor) and minimally invasive CGMs exist. It's the non-invasive CGMs which are being worked on because managing an implant or having something always poking through you is a big annoyance+risk compared to wearing a watch, ring, or patch.
The problems for these non-invasive options so far is they either too easily fail to work, are bulky/expensive, give very ballpark accuracies, or some combination thereof.
The biggest problem is that they are racist. Optical blood sugar sensing devices were developed a decade ago. They were pretty accurate for pale white people, ballpark for most skin tones and don’t work at all for Black people. Good luck bringing that to market. Apple threw out the whole product and restarted with infrared.
Ketones have some dieting and weight loss applications, so I guess you could do better real time tracking of how you're digesting carbs and when it's okay to eat? maybe
They are specifically relevant to trying to enter a fasted state.
The presence or absence of ketones in your blood can tell you whether or not (say) that coffee you just drank took you out of the fasted state (that you were in for not eating overnight).
Whether or not you are in a fasted state matters not just for weight loss, but also for things like longevity (when you are in a fasted state your body cleans up dead cells that contribute to things like cancer, whereas in a non-fasted state it leaves them lying around).
An 8oz serving of milk (236 ml) has 12 g of carbohydrate.
People tend to add single or double cream (1/2 & 1/2 or whipping / heavy cream, respectively, in the US) to coffee, both of which have less carbohydrate, and generally add a tablespoon or two (15--30 ml) per cup of coffee. The carbohydrate content is < 2g.
That's unlikely to bring someone out of a ketosis state, which requires a daily intake of < 15--30g. That's about two full cups (450 ml) of single cream.
I never looked before today, but always thought it was the other way around.
> That's unlikely to bring someone out of a ketosis state, which requires a daily intake of < 15--30g
Also neat to know.
I only know the impact that a Dunks coffee (with cream) has on my blood sugar (and how much insulin I need to take to counteract it). So this has been a learning experience for me. Thanks
Cardiac surgery, burn units, ICU, neuro come to mind. All have been studied to show mortality and complications improvements with AGC, but unfortunately the commercial technology has not materialized yet.
Drug interference (with the sensor chemistry) and perfusion (which the sensor needs to function) are two major problems that a hospital presents that are not present in ambulatory (outside the hospital) use. Also the FDA has not approved any systems yet; the software is actually quite difficult to get right.
I’m willing to bet we can see longevity improvements from better blood sugar control. Not 100% certain but extremely likely, this would include potential heart attack and dementia reduction…
That's not a fair representation of what happened. That study was going for _aggressive_ control - beyond what any normal person would do. They were combining multiple drugs to force blood sugar down rapidly, including right after meals (when it _should_ be going up).
Paying more attention to your blood sugar and acting reasonably to keep it in check isn't giving anyone heart attacks.
From the AI
> The concern was not that lower glucose is inherently bad. Rather, pushing blood sugar down rapidly and very tightly—especially with insulin and multiple glucose-lowering drugs—caused more episodes of hypoglycemia, weight gain, and treatment complexity. Severe low blood sugar can trigger abnormal heart rhythms and other cardiovascular stress. The intensive-treatment arm was stopped early after about 3.5 years because it had a higher death rate, although the exact mechanism was not definitively established.
No, you were deliberately disingenuous (I understood that) but I decided to answer the best possible interpretation of what you meant. I'd seriously reconsider this argument style, just because it's common doesn't mean any of us should think it's acceptable to pass of half truths as pithy commentary. You won't listen of course, nobody does anymore, they just want some ego points of being technically right in the narrowest of ways. Pointless point scoring.
I was being deliberately disingenuous? I think the person who invented a strawman augment that I didn't make is the disingenuous one. Takes some balls to do that and then lecture me on honest discourse.
Fasting and ketosis has nothing to do with tight blood sugar control. Your body manages blood sugar even if you're fasted or burning ketones.
I'll be showing my bias here, but you're probably referring to NICE-SUGAR, which I think suffered mainly from having a pretty uninspired control algorithm. We built and simulated it and several other clinical protocols and it had the widest spread of performance, but it lost a ton of points to hypoglycemia performance, which is where you get into increasing mortality. The NICE-SUGAR protocol [1] has no notion of weight based dosing, and even has some completely missed edge cases. There have been similar studies in Japan with a better algorithm and they showed the expected benefits.
IMO blood sugar is too simple and focused on because of ease of measurement. Someone can have rollercoaster blood sugar and be far more metabolically healthier than someone with low and steady blood sugar. Continious insulin and cortisol monitors are far more interesting IMO
Metabolic psychiatry is rising, though very slowly. You do "epilepsy keto diet", and may work in bipolar/schizophrenia (need GKI 1-2, it's not keto for weight loss). But you don't need the continuous monitor, normal ketone monitor is fine, because the food list is very narrow.
The continuous monitor should help until you get the hang of the diet, it's a bit hard to maintain, but if it works, worth it.
Preventive medicine is a bit one. If your fitness watch could measure blood glucose, I think it would be a ton more impactful in terms of health outcomes.
Can you be specific about what your bloodwork results showed and what special insights your CGM gave you and what behavioural changes it led to?
My anecdotal experience from doctor colleagues giving CGM to patients is that it does 3/5ths of fuck all to everyone except those with actual insulin dependent diabetes (T1 or T2) because when you get down to it the insights aren’t that great and most people actually aren’t that invested in shifting the dial on their health that much. But I’m fascinated by examples to the contrary
Seeing just how much rice can impact your blood sugar is eye opening. Sticking to a "half the normal amount" of rice when eating Indian/Asian food can help a lot with blood sugar. And keeping blood sugar in check _seems_ to have a fair amount of researching backing up the idea that it's healthier and makes you feel better
It matters because high blood sugar isn't great for the body (nor is low blood sugar). A normal, non-diabetic's blood sugar might spike to 120/130 after a balanced meal. But that same person's blood sugar might spike up to 160/170 after something carb-heavy. So sure, the body corrects for it - but it would be healthier if it didn't go into that higher range at all.
My story is: I had a really bad crash after eating a chocolate, which never happened before. That prompted the bloodwork, which shown that A1c was not where it's supposed to be.
I bought CGM myself, without any doctor's input. Didn't know they exist before reading some selfhelp book which my wife found.
Echoing another poster, it's eye opening how some of the foods you'd never think of, are spiking glucose levels.
Overall, after both me and my wife adjusted diet, much better energy through the day, no crashes.
For sure it's going to depend on the person, but I bet a lot of the hacker news crowd here appreciates observability and metrics.
In software we're wiring up stuff with prometheus and making grafana dashboards and changing code and configuration based on what we see happening. CGMs in a way give you insight into one aspect of your body and diet.
I've been trying Lingo, and it's been super-interesting to see in almost realtime how your body reacts to different foods. Sure you read all the time about "watch your carbs..." or "don't eat so much sugar", but it's hard to know how seriously to take that advice.
It's a whole different thing though when you eat one thing for a snack and see a big spike in a graph on your phone, and eat a different thing the next day and see hardly any change at all. It makes it much easier to rationalize your food choices.
Diabetes (as with much else) is a continuum. Many people are prediabetic, or experience periods of high or low blood sugar.
There are also multiple types of diabetes, not just the generally-known Type I / II split, but gestational (affecting pregnant women), Type 5, malnutrition-related, and others. (See Wikipedia for a listing: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diabetes#Types>.)
Other factors can also influence blood sugars, including infections, physical activity, and stress.
I know, logically, that if I eat a bunch of carbs or sugar my blood sugar will rise. I know if I go for a walk right after a meal it will help blunt the rise. Eating fiber at the start of a meal is also supposed to help avoid the spike.
However, I can’t quantify any of these things, so it feels too abstract. If I was able to see numbers and real-time impacts of my actions, it seems like it would do wonders for adherence to various protocols.
It seems like it could also provide a warning signal if levels are chronically elevated due to diet and lifestyle factors, which would eventually lead to insulin resistance and type 2 diabetes if left unchecked.
High blood glucose causes a host of bad health issues even in non-diabetic people: visceral fat, liver fat, inflammation, cardiac disease... You don't need to wait to be diabetic to embrace good dietary habits, and a glucose monitor would go a long way helping people make that transition.
Also rare genetic issues like GSDs and FAODs may benefit immensely from dual glucose and ketone metering. Next we need potassium and magnesium meters and that will benefit the people with rare renal wasting syndromes like Gitelman and Bartters
Metabolism, and the endocrine system in general, is very responsive to physical activity. Even in athletes, glucose can have significant ups and downs when it gets intense.
It would be interesting to see this technology branch out into monitoring hormones, minerals, vitamins, etc. For all of human history, the closest we've had to realtime monitoring is just our mood. It would be life changing for anyone to have this feedback.
Blood glucose levels affect lots of health functions. Diabetes represents an extreme end of the spectrum where the body's ability to regulate these fluctuations fails, but just because your body can get your levels in control eventually doesn't mean you won't suffer from the negative effects of it needing to do so.
Maintaining consistent glucose levels improves mental health, weight management, sleep quality, muscle recovery, systemic inflammation, cardiovascular health, and may even slow aging. There isn't much clinical data at the moment on how to use blood glucose measurements to control glucose levels outside of people with diabetes (there are lots of things that impact it besides just sugar intake), but there are definitely major theoretical benefits if it can be worked out.
Also, just reducing the incidence of diabetes would be no small accomplishment. About 3.5% of global disability adjusted life-years (DALYs) are due to diabetes. As of 2021 it was the 7th largest contributor of global DALYs.
sample of 1, but yeah changing my diet (very low sugar, more veggies) did alter my health visibly and rapidly. to the point that if I eat something too sweet too fast i have a very mild headache soon after, my system readjusted to not seek levels i grew up with
if sugar gives you a headache, this may be related to a gastrointestinal issue (e.g. gluten sensitivity, dietary histamine sensitivity, small intestinal bacterial overgrowth possibly causing its own sensitivities...) The specifics of the cause in your case are between you and your doctor, but i'd like more people to know, especially since these sorts of problems disproportionately affect people with autism and ADHD, long a core Hacker News demographic, and most of us have trouble paying attention to everything our body is feeling in exquisite detail.
other signs of digestive problems in this area may include:
- a pattern of early-afternoon fatigue and brain fog (this is mediated by histamine, which in turn can be caused by a food allergy, a non-allergy food sensitivity, bacteria in the stomach that don't belong there, or the like)
- feeling generally flushed and hot after eating food (more histamine!)
- waking up in the middle of the night, ~4am, especially if you're feeling too hot (also a sign of excess histamine)
- often having an upset stomach, and lots of stomach acid
- increased sensitivity to heat or exercise (mast cell degranulation because your body is already on edge)
- generalized hard-to-place fatigue, brain fog, depression (the whole histamine-response pathway is shot through with various neurotransmitters)
- serious nasal congestion contributing to sleep apnea, and extreme fatigue
now, this is going to be different from person to person, but your doctor's not going to know anything's wrong if you don't tell them!
(and if something like this is the case, it's also the sort of condition that might sometimes has an instant miracle cure, because if you stop releasing the feel-bad neurotransmitters every time you eat, then you suddenly stop feeling terrible!! go figure.)
> it's also the sort of condition that might sometimes has an instant miracle cure
I assume that by this you mean figuring out some kind of dietary restriction?
I also struggle with a lot of those things (also ADHD) plus other inflammation-related issues (ezcema), and noticed a very specific pattern of fatigue during the day that improves at night. It's hard to tell what might be effective or not since keeping stability in my routine is a struggle, but I've mostly came up empty on explanations/solutions so far.
What happens is you lose carb tolerance if you don't take them regularly.
I had really high carb tolerance but doing keto for many years has plummeted it and I'm very sensitive now (can still train it). Another example doing keto for many years you also have lower alcohol tolerance.
Wearing a glucose monitor for a while showed me that some veggies are worse than the usual suspects: 80g of rice with fish gave me a glucose spike higher than a Nutella sandwich. Other veggies, like beans, surprisingly low.
Rice is not a veggie ffs, its not very healthy even in its best forms. Just a lot of simpler sugars. You are not doing anything healthy by eating it, and that glucose spike is very much expected just like from other junk food.
Rice is consumed a lot, and it has more things than "a lot of simple sugars". In fact, any "veggie" book would include many of recipes with rice, rice flour or rice noodles, as they are usually based in Asian cuisine. Also, as the current hell is gluten, some recipes suggest replacing wheat with rice.
It is common knowledge in the vegan world to pair lentils with rice, as they complement (rice is low lysine, high in methionine, lentils the other way). Lentils includes fiber that lowers the glycemic index of the overall meal, but also rice eases the otherwise heavy digestion of lentils. They both pair in other micronutrients (iron, zinc, selenium, magnesium, potassium).
Potatoes are vegetables? Rutabaga? Pumpking? Carrot? Turnip? They also punch high, and are consumed a lot by people that believes just "eating more veggies" would solve all their problems. And lets not talk about some fruits.
It may be worth getting checked out for fructose malabsorption. It means the main pathway for fructose absorption is not working and your gut only has less effective (and easily disrupted, looking at you Sorbitol) transport pathways with single digit grams capacity. Anything more and you will get symptoms. It is extremely hard to avoid fructose to get down to that level without careful attention so it is significantly under-diagnosed.
Recall that GLP-1s were originally designed as next-generation long acting insulin modulators; they're a form of passive control. The CGM gives you data to act on, or at the very least observe. I find, from my experience wearing them as a person without diabetes, they give really interesting insights into my own life by giving numbers to stressful moments, which can be good insight to have. That's called stress induced hyperglycemia. Everyone has a unique and continuously evolving glucose system, so YMMV.
I am confident that blood glucose has a lot to do with mood regulation as well.
Having been diagnosed with bipolar since 1997, when I began mainlining insulin last year I immediately took notice of how calm and docile I became. I have anger issues and taking insulin turned me into a lamb. I also immediately began sleeping peacefully and restfully, which had been elusive for a decade.
I currently take a calcium channel blocker for hypertension, and Metformin for the glucose, and I monitor with Stelo. But I would give anything for that calming effect of fast-acting insulin.
"management" is the key word. Early diagnosis might help a lot not just with T1 but also T2.
Early diagnosis would save a lot of pain and suffering... and money.
I worked with an older T1 and apparently a bit less than half of kids diagnosed with T1 are diagnosed unconscious during a DKA event in the ER. "Treatment" cost, or at least requested revenue LOL, is at least $30K for an ER visit like that, and it also costs at least some months (years?) off their expected lifespan.
Figure about 0.5% of the population in the USA is T1, you read stuff like "about two million T1 diabetics" in the USA. So early T1 diagnosis would save the country overall about $30B just in DKA treatment alone at time of initial diagnosis.
If you could screen an entire population for less than $30B total lifetime cost, it would be financially rational to prescreen for T1 rather than waiting for ambulances to present incredibly sick kids. And potentially profitable.
Prescreening the entire population for metabolic disorders is quite plausible as a "tech startup idea" as the alternative is waiting for them to arrive in an ambulance while extremely sick/nearly dead. Lets say it could be done for $10B, leaving $10B for startup profit (charge insurance companies $20B which is not bad....) and $10B in lowered health care costs for the country in general, not to mention less suffering in the population. A win-win scenario.
IF blood sugar related disorders could be pre-screened for less than $10B total cost. A solid "maybe"? Plausibly a startup doing blood sugar prescreening would be a "multibillion dollar company" although not a trillion dollar unicorn. Still a good idea.
If the large studies are to be believed, you could save hundreds of thousands of lives and many billions in excess expenditure, because stable blood glucose shortens length of stay. People with diabetes alone account for 60% of hospital expenditure, so improving their care improves the system in a big way.
>People with diabetes alone account for 60% of hospital expenditure
That number seemed too large to be true, and I think you might be conflating some numbers...
The NIH study about Economic Costs of Diabetes in the US in 2022 [1] states:
>For cost categories analyzed, care for people diagnosed with diabetes accounts for 1 in 4 health care dollars in the U.S., 61% of which are attributable to diabetes.
So, 25% of health care (not hospital) dollars in the US are apportioned to people with diabetes, and in 61% of those cases, the cause is directly attributable to diabetes itself.
Similarly, an NHS study [2] revealed that 60% of overall diabetes spend goes towards diabetes-related complications.
Finally, this presentation [3] states that: "hospital stays involving patients with diabetes contributed almost $83 billion or 23% of the total hospitalization costs in the United States," and, of course, not all of those were directly diabetes-related.
Obviously that is still a staggering amount of money spent on diabetes every year, and represents a huge burden on our healthcare system. But 60% for all hospital expenditure just doesn't track from my cursory Google-ing here.
Why should hospitals be motivated to shorten stays and reduce expenditures when those stays and expenditures mean that their profits will increase? Why don't they want to maximize profits from the suffering of sick people?
Outside America, profit does not push every other motivation to the bottom of the pool to drown
Though for the more terminally American founders here: reception filling in intake forms and charging one-time admission and diagnostic fees for new patients may have better margin than doctors charging billable hours
Minimed 780g user here, it is not perfect. For a true closed loop we need a system that can give glucagon as well.
The current closed loop only gives you insulin to lower your blood glucose. When it gives too much it wakes you up and asks you to treat it.
You also have to accurately count carbs of meals you eat, enter when you exercise.
The sensors are also not quite reliable so sometimes it freaks out and you calibrate and go manual.
For a closed loop we need insulin and glucagon in conjunction to keep the bg stable without user intervention.
All closed loop systems require human action--maintenance,filling reservoirs, changing sites, dealing with the inherent variation of CGMs, estimating carbs, etc. even if glucagon delivery were on board (it's being worked on). But most are generally providing insulin delivery in real time, based on CGM data.
Also, I agree--glucagon would be a useful thing onboard for T1d, but not really for T2d, because (as you know) the essential problem there is highs, not lows.
And I definitely agree about CGM accuracy: most people don't know that there's a significant margin of error in all CGMs. It's 'close', but not precise.
A device like this only really changes outcomes if people can actually afford to wear one continuously, not just during periods when they're already at higher risk
Automated control of every major component of the circulatory system should be coming up in the future of medicine if society doesn't implode first. Stabbed through the heart and lung? Plumb in an artificial blood pump and gas exchange unit until they can be surgically treated. There's no reason we can't duplicate the functionality of the heart, lungs, liver, or kidneys. It could save tons of lives if we get there.
We have functional machines that replace heart and lungs (for a while). Unfortunately they also mess up your blood cells and there is of course a risk of sepsis.
I'm in biotech and if I had a dollar for every engineer I've met who dreamed of or worked-at-a-place-that-tried or even tried-in-their-freetime to make a non-invasive glucometer, I'd have at least enough to buy a coffee, which is a lot.
There is an ever-growing bodycount in the NIO-GM graveyard [0], but I too hope that one day, it'll get figured out. My old roommate and good friend was T1 and monitoring one's glucose and remembering not to eat too much/little is half your life.
That is a very bad article. Most, if not all non-invasive blood glucose projects had no peer reviewed publications.
Anyway, this problem, to measure blood glucose non-invasive, is solved now. A product should be on the market very soon. And while I am not involved anymore, I once submitted an SBIR grant application to the NIH with this technology. A specific item that this technology used would be a few hundreds bucks if produced in quantities. I also wrote this in the grant application. The examiner googled this thing, and a top-notch single item for lab measurements was 50 grand. Obviously, too expensive. So the thing I learned:
An idiot and Google are a very dangerous combination. Even at the NIH.
PS: Neither the start-up, nor their technology is mentioned in the paper. All the mentioned technologies have been tried and are bound to fail in my opinion. At least the examiner gave me a very high score on "innovative".
I thought this was going to be a non-invasive sugar-level device, but it looks like in fact the innovation here is that a popular CGM line can now do ketones?
non-invasive continuous blood sugar measurement is mired in patents and technical challenges. Turns out it's really difficult to disambiguate the absorption lines of glucose from other similarly shaped molecules when you're also dealing with untangling skin conductivity, transmissivity, sweat, inflammation etc.
I also think there's no financial incentive from incumbents to develop something like this. Why would abbott develop something that works "forever" if they can milk people buying new sensors every 10~14 days.
There is a major IP holder in the space who is asserting their ownership, so even if they could solve the technical challenges, they might not be able to come to market.
(don't have a problem with that, but it's predictable)
too bad it's not "wearable" like a watch but that might be coming eventually too since Garmin has a patent on it
* https://the5krunner.com/2026/02/06/garmin-non-invasive-blood...
(btw Fenix 9 launched today but it's same hardware as Fenix 8 and no glucose feature)
Talking to ultramarathoners and cyclists, I think lactate is a biomarker that is tracked (POC blood samples) and would be more immediately useful for training/performance. AID might be construed as a form of doping, IMO.
AGC will find its main application in surgical and inpatient uses, eg in cardiac, neuro, burn, ICU, and people with diabetes in any hospital setting.
No disagreement about AGC in the hospital -- there is a lot of lab/titration work in current clinical workflows for monitoring patient glucose levels.
Hat tip to you and sibling comment about continouous lactate sensors (seem like they are microneedle/patch based?). Quick review shows minimal clinical evidence, but maybe that's sufficient for the consumer wearable market.
They exist, a simple search will turn up a variety (how well they work is a different question). But see my sibling comment, they're banned from cycling competition.
Already banned:
https://www.bikeradar.com/news/uci-bans-supersapiens
Glucose and ketone monitoring seems a natural, more precise extension of that strategy. Isn't the point of carb-cramming to get more glucose into your blood stream, where your muscles can convert that into forward motion?
How? Like, what is the mechanism where this is useful?
More on metabolic flexibility: https://www.levels.com/blog/what-is-metabolic-flexibility-an...
Before buying one, just know that fit cyclists will appear glucose intolerant on a CGM. See Fig. 1 at https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10933193/
The problems for these non-invasive options so far is they either too easily fail to work, are bulky/expensive, give very ballpark accuracies, or some combination thereof.
What areas do you have in mind outside of diabetes management?
The presence or absence of ketones in your blood can tell you whether or not (say) that coffee you just drank took you out of the fasted state (that you were in for not eating overnight).
Whether or not you are in a fasted state matters not just for weight loss, but also for things like longevity (when you are in a fasted state your body cleans up dead cells that contribute to things like cancer, whereas in a non-fasted state it leaves them lying around).
A cup of coffee has zero carbohydrates, trace lipids, and about half a gram of protein. That's not going to pull anyone out of a fasting state.
Now, if you're talking about a cup of flavoured milk, that's a different question...
People tend to add single or double cream (1/2 & 1/2 or whipping / heavy cream, respectively, in the US) to coffee, both of which have less carbohydrate, and generally add a tablespoon or two (15--30 ml) per cup of coffee. The carbohydrate content is < 2g.
That's unlikely to bring someone out of a ketosis state, which requires a daily intake of < 15--30g. That's about two full cups (450 ml) of single cream.
I never looked before today, but always thought it was the other way around.
> That's unlikely to bring someone out of a ketosis state, which requires a daily intake of < 15--30g
Also neat to know.
I only know the impact that a Dunks coffee (with cream) has on my blood sugar (and how much insulin I need to take to counteract it). So this has been a learning experience for me. Thanks
Paying more attention to your blood sugar and acting reasonably to keep it in check isn't giving anyone heart attacks.
From the AI
> The concern was not that lower glucose is inherently bad. Rather, pushing blood sugar down rapidly and very tightly—especially with insulin and multiple glucose-lowering drugs—caused more episodes of hypoglycemia, weight gain, and treatment complexity. Severe low blood sugar can trigger abnormal heart rhythms and other cardiovascular stress. The intensive-treatment arm was stopped early after about 3.5 years because it had a higher death rate, although the exact mechanism was not definitively established.
Fasting and ketosis has nothing to do with tight blood sugar control. Your body manages blood sugar even if you're fasted or burning ketones.
[1] - https://www.glycemiccontrol.net/NICE/StudyDesign/NiceALGORIT...
The continuous monitor should help until you get the hang of the diet, it's a bit hard to maintain, but if it works, worth it.
Even if it doesn’t increase steps on average, it will absolutely still work with someone who’s self-motivated and not just looking for a quick fix.
That device helped a lot to switch diet habits.
My anecdotal experience from doctor colleagues giving CGM to patients is that it does 3/5ths of fuck all to everyone except those with actual insulin dependent diabetes (T1 or T2) because when you get down to it the insights aren’t that great and most people actually aren’t that invested in shifting the dial on their health that much. But I’m fascinated by examples to the contrary
Yet the mind of most people is terrible at that, we love to overeat our body regulations.
I bought CGM myself, without any doctor's input. Didn't know they exist before reading some selfhelp book which my wife found.
Echoing another poster, it's eye opening how some of the foods you'd never think of, are spiking glucose levels.
Overall, after both me and my wife adjusted diet, much better energy through the day, no crashes.
In software we're wiring up stuff with prometheus and making grafana dashboards and changing code and configuration based on what we see happening. CGMs in a way give you insight into one aspect of your body and diet.
I've been trying Lingo, and it's been super-interesting to see in almost realtime how your body reacts to different foods. Sure you read all the time about "watch your carbs..." or "don't eat so much sugar", but it's hard to know how seriously to take that advice.
It's a whole different thing though when you eat one thing for a snack and see a big spike in a graph on your phone, and eat a different thing the next day and see hardly any change at all. It makes it much easier to rationalize your food choices.
There are also multiple types of diabetes, not just the generally-known Type I / II split, but gestational (affecting pregnant women), Type 5, malnutrition-related, and others. (See Wikipedia for a listing: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diabetes#Types>.)
Other factors can also influence blood sugars, including infections, physical activity, and stress.
However, I can’t quantify any of these things, so it feels too abstract. If I was able to see numbers and real-time impacts of my actions, it seems like it would do wonders for adherence to various protocols.
It seems like it could also provide a warning signal if levels are chronically elevated due to diet and lifestyle factors, which would eventually lead to insulin resistance and type 2 diabetes if left unchecked.
It would be interesting to see this technology branch out into monitoring hormones, minerals, vitamins, etc. For all of human history, the closest we've had to realtime monitoring is just our mood. It would be life changing for anyone to have this feedback.
Maintaining consistent glucose levels improves mental health, weight management, sleep quality, muscle recovery, systemic inflammation, cardiovascular health, and may even slow aging. There isn't much clinical data at the moment on how to use blood glucose measurements to control glucose levels outside of people with diabetes (there are lots of things that impact it besides just sugar intake), but there are definitely major theoretical benefits if it can be worked out.
Also, just reducing the incidence of diabetes would be no small accomplishment. About 3.5% of global disability adjusted life-years (DALYs) are due to diabetes. As of 2021 it was the 7th largest contributor of global DALYs.
if sugar gives you a headache, this may be related to a gastrointestinal issue (e.g. gluten sensitivity, dietary histamine sensitivity, small intestinal bacterial overgrowth possibly causing its own sensitivities...) The specifics of the cause in your case are between you and your doctor, but i'd like more people to know, especially since these sorts of problems disproportionately affect people with autism and ADHD, long a core Hacker News demographic, and most of us have trouble paying attention to everything our body is feeling in exquisite detail.
other signs of digestive problems in this area may include:
- a pattern of early-afternoon fatigue and brain fog (this is mediated by histamine, which in turn can be caused by a food allergy, a non-allergy food sensitivity, bacteria in the stomach that don't belong there, or the like)
- feeling generally flushed and hot after eating food (more histamine!)
- waking up in the middle of the night, ~4am, especially if you're feeling too hot (also a sign of excess histamine)
- often having an upset stomach, and lots of stomach acid
- increased sensitivity to heat or exercise (mast cell degranulation because your body is already on edge)
- generalized hard-to-place fatigue, brain fog, depression (the whole histamine-response pathway is shot through with various neurotransmitters)
- serious nasal congestion contributing to sleep apnea, and extreme fatigue
now, this is going to be different from person to person, but your doctor's not going to know anything's wrong if you don't tell them!
(and if something like this is the case, it's also the sort of condition that might sometimes has an instant miracle cure, because if you stop releasing the feel-bad neurotransmitters every time you eat, then you suddenly stop feeling terrible!! go figure.)
I assume that by this you mean figuring out some kind of dietary restriction?
I also struggle with a lot of those things (also ADHD) plus other inflammation-related issues (ezcema), and noticed a very specific pattern of fatigue during the day that improves at night. It's hard to tell what might be effective or not since keeping stability in my routine is a struggle, but I've mostly came up empty on explanations/solutions so far.
Bodies are fun.
I had really high carb tolerance but doing keto for many years has plummeted it and I'm very sensitive now (can still train it). Another example doing keto for many years you also have lower alcohol tolerance.
Wearing a glucose monitor for a while showed me that some veggies are worse than the usual suspects: 80g of rice with fish gave me a glucose spike higher than a Nutella sandwich. Other veggies, like beans, surprisingly low.
It is common knowledge in the vegan world to pair lentils with rice, as they complement (rice is low lysine, high in methionine, lentils the other way). Lentils includes fiber that lowers the glycemic index of the overall meal, but also rice eases the otherwise heavy digestion of lentils. They both pair in other micronutrients (iron, zinc, selenium, magnesium, potassium).
Try eating wholegrain rice.
Wholegrain won't do magic here. Glycemic index of wholegrain flours and wholegrain products (bread, cookies...), even sugar free, can be higher than foods made with regular grain. E.g. glycemic index of butter cookies is 60-70 (https://glycemic-index.net/cookies-pastries/ https://glycemic-index-database.com/foods/butter-cookies-flo...), for a wholegrain baguette is 75 (https://glycemic-index.net/baguette-whole-grain/).
Having been diagnosed with bipolar since 1997, when I began mainlining insulin last year I immediately took notice of how calm and docile I became. I have anger issues and taking insulin turned me into a lamb. I also immediately began sleeping peacefully and restfully, which had been elusive for a decade.
I currently take a calcium channel blocker for hypertension, and Metformin for the glucose, and I monitor with Stelo. But I would give anything for that calming effect of fast-acting insulin.
Early diagnosis would save a lot of pain and suffering... and money.
I worked with an older T1 and apparently a bit less than half of kids diagnosed with T1 are diagnosed unconscious during a DKA event in the ER. "Treatment" cost, or at least requested revenue LOL, is at least $30K for an ER visit like that, and it also costs at least some months (years?) off their expected lifespan.
Figure about 0.5% of the population in the USA is T1, you read stuff like "about two million T1 diabetics" in the USA. So early T1 diagnosis would save the country overall about $30B just in DKA treatment alone at time of initial diagnosis.
If you could screen an entire population for less than $30B total lifetime cost, it would be financially rational to prescreen for T1 rather than waiting for ambulances to present incredibly sick kids. And potentially profitable.
Prescreening the entire population for metabolic disorders is quite plausible as a "tech startup idea" as the alternative is waiting for them to arrive in an ambulance while extremely sick/nearly dead. Lets say it could be done for $10B, leaving $10B for startup profit (charge insurance companies $20B which is not bad....) and $10B in lowered health care costs for the country in general, not to mention less suffering in the population. A win-win scenario.
IF blood sugar related disorders could be pre-screened for less than $10B total cost. A solid "maybe"? Plausibly a startup doing blood sugar prescreening would be a "multibillion dollar company" although not a trillion dollar unicorn. Still a good idea.
That number seemed too large to be true, and I think you might be conflating some numbers...
The NIH study about Economic Costs of Diabetes in the US in 2022 [1] states:
>For cost categories analyzed, care for people diagnosed with diabetes accounts for 1 in 4 health care dollars in the U.S., 61% of which are attributable to diabetes.
So, 25% of health care (not hospital) dollars in the US are apportioned to people with diabetes, and in 61% of those cases, the cause is directly attributable to diabetes itself.
Similarly, an NHS study [2] revealed that 60% of overall diabetes spend goes towards diabetes-related complications.
Finally, this presentation [3] states that: "hospital stays involving patients with diabetes contributed almost $83 billion or 23% of the total hospitalization costs in the United States," and, of course, not all of those were directly diabetes-related.
Obviously that is still a staggering amount of money spent on diabetes every year, and represents a huge burden on our healthcare system. But 60% for all hospital expenditure just doesn't track from my cursory Google-ing here.
[1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37909353/
[2] https://www.diabetes.org.uk/about-us/news-and-views/cost-com...
[3] https://www.bu.edu/csmet/2020/08/04/healthcare-data-analytic...
Though for the more terminally American founders here: reception filling in intake forms and charging one-time admission and diagnostic fees for new patients may have better margin than doctors charging billable hours
For a closed loop we need insulin and glucagon in conjunction to keep the bg stable without user intervention.
Also, I agree--glucagon would be a useful thing onboard for T1d, but not really for T2d, because (as you know) the essential problem there is highs, not lows.
And I definitely agree about CGM accuracy: most people don't know that there's a significant margin of error in all CGMs. It's 'close', but not precise.
I'm a parent of a T1d kid.
There is an ever-growing bodycount in the NIO-GM graveyard [0], but I too hope that one day, it'll get figured out. My old roommate and good friend was T1 and monitoring one's glucose and remembering not to eat too much/little is half your life.
[0] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8655290/
Anyway, this problem, to measure blood glucose non-invasive, is solved now. A product should be on the market very soon. And while I am not involved anymore, I once submitted an SBIR grant application to the NIH with this technology. A specific item that this technology used would be a few hundreds bucks if produced in quantities. I also wrote this in the grant application. The examiner googled this thing, and a top-notch single item for lab measurements was 50 grand. Obviously, too expensive. So the thing I learned:
An idiot and Google are a very dangerous combination. Even at the NIH.
PS: Neither the start-up, nor their technology is mentioned in the paper. All the mentioned technologies have been tried and are bound to fail in my opinion. At least the examiner gave me a very high score on "innovative".
Diabetics would snap up a smart watch which does accurate glucose monitoring in a heartbeat.