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Apr 29 08:07 UTC

The operating cost of adult and gambling startups (orchidfiles.com)

137 points|by theorchid||216 comments|Read full story on orchidfiles.com

Comments (216)

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  1. 1. A_Duck||context
    What's the author trying to say here?

    It's good that the law isn't the only line between good and evil. A bit of stigma is a bottom-up way for people to shape society.

    If nobody invites you to dinner parties because you run a startup that combines payday-lending and day-trading, that's a good thing. It's free alpha for companies doing more worthwhile things.

  2. 2. 3form||context
    I don't like mixing of everything 18+ in the article. I think the author wants to put all the stigma in one basket, and I don't it's as simple. For example, porn meets some actual human needs and has a certain function - but gambling? Simple abuse at scale.

    I think like you argue, society shaping business is good. And some people should really reevaluate what they're going for if that's too much for them.

  3. 3. embedding-shape||context
    > For example, porn meets some actual human needs and has a certain function - but gambling? Simple abuse at scale.

    Now I'm as as free-minded as people typically gets, but both of those are just "entertainment" for me, one is not more "essential" than the other, what exact "human need" does pornography meet that somehow gambling doesn't also meet, since we're not talking about "fun" or "entertainment" here but something else it sounds like.

  4. 4. 8-prime||context
    While the porn industry has issue, at its core it isn't constructed to extract money from you.

    Boiling Gambling down to just being "entertainment" is a bit too reductionist in my opinion.

  5. 5. lurkshark||context
    > it isn't constructed to extract money from you

    I mean yes, it is; It’s not a charity. I guess you could argue it tends to do it slower than gambling?

  6. 6. embedding-shape||context
    > While the porn industry has issue, at its core it isn't constructed to extract money from you.

    For what purpose do you think that industry was indirectly created for, if not to make money from people? Even if it might not have been created with that intent (although I'd still argue it was), today it surely is mainly driven and maintain with the (at least) implicit purpose of extracting money from people, that's literally why we call it an "industry" instead of just a "community".

  7. 7. adrian_b||context
    Like others have said, any industry has the purpose of extracting money from the customers.

    The original poster has not expressed this correctly, but I assume that the intention was to say that the gambling industry is different from all other industries, not because it extracts money like any other industry, but because it does not return a product or service for that money.

    The porn industry is no different from any other entertainment industry and it provides a service for money.

    Gambling does not really provide any service, it just exploits the hope of the gamblers that they might gain something by gambling, which at least on average, never happens.

    I do not think that one can call the stimulation of this hope of gaining as entertainment. There are some gamblers for which gambling is really entertainment, i.e. they are rich and they do not seriously expect to gain anything, but the majority of the gamblers do not do this to be entertained but because of the irrational hope of gaining enough to solve all their problems.

  8. 8. 8-prime||context
    Thank you. That is want I attempted to say.
  9. 9. IshKebab||context
    I don't think that's the issue with gambling - all commercial activity is constructed to extract money from you.

    The problem with gambling is that people often get addicted and ruin their lives due to it.

    While that probably can happen with porn I think the likelihood is a couple of orders of magnitude lower.

  10. 10. 3form||context
    Sure - what comes to mind:

    - helps in managing sexual needs, which can be difficult to handle otherwise, and especially replace

    - educational: whether it is about workings of sex, ideas to improve your sex life with a partner, or something to discover about yourself

    I suppose there's more to it, but most other things I can think of are an extension to meeting sexual needs.

  11. 11. itake||context
    > helps in managing sexual needs

    There are plenty of "sexual needs" that society says "no, you can't satisfy them." (for example, Nguyễn Xuân Đạt).

    I don't think sexual needs are needs that can't be managed without media.

    > educational: whether it is about workings of sex

    I find when a partner characterizes porn, the sex is worse... Maybe other people enjoy the sounds or behaviors seen in the videos, but not for me.

  12. 12. 3form||context
    >I don't think sexual needs are needs that can't be managed without media.

    Of course they can, but it still helps - that's why I used that wording.

    Also replacement of one sex need with another feels more viable than with other needs, given how the chemical machinery of the body seems to work.

    > I find when a partner characterizes porn, the sex is worse... Maybe other people enjoy the sounds or behaviors seen in the videos, but not for me.

    I can't say that the content isn't majorly bad, or that the field is not rife with abuse. That's a real problem, but I think u related to the original question of "does it address a real need".

    In this case I think the main takeaways are the ideas, techniques, and what you can learn about body from some of the more realistic videos. Somewhat unfortunately, many people pick wrongly, but I do believe right choices exist.

  13. 13. itake||context
    The media projects that gay conversion initiatives fail at steering the ship the other direction. Governments (and society) expect personal repression and do not allow for outlets or replacements.

    (for the record, these ideas I'm writing about are not my own, but my observations as a member of the society. I wish these topics were less taboo, but it is what it is.)

  14. 14. TZubiri||context
    More importantly, one is legal, the other isn't, running a casino without a license is illegal and you can face criminal charges and jailtime, which I don't think is the case for operating a porn studio. This is regardless of the ethics, I'm actually pro gambling and anti porn, but that's the law is all I am saying, and I don't think it's a trivial difference, and for sure the author is bucketing to downplay their 'stigma'.

    No buddy, not the same.

    I am not a lawyer, this is not legal advice.

  15. 15. LorenPechtel||context
    Very much agree.

    I have no problems with the porn industry--if anything I think the requirements are too strict. Being able to inspect the records during business hours looks innocent enough, but it assumes you have an office and business hours. And it requires more dissemination of real identities than ideal. Virtually all the sins it's blamed for aren't accurate. About the only valid objection is that porn is no more realistic sex than Hollywood is realistic life. And because we won't do something sensible like actually teach kids about it there are problems from not having other models and not understanding how unrealistic it is.

    Gambling, nuke from orbit. Large scale gambling operations have no redeeming social value.

  16. 16. strken||context
    One of the clients I've worked with was a female-led sex toy manufacturer. It was a nuisance trying to dodge some of the roadblocks.

    Stigma and regulatory pressure don't always mean the company is evil.

  17. 17. nekusar||context
    Just call the brand "Pickle Bread".

    Cause it's made with dill dough :D

    (gotta at least have a joke for a friday. its rough for a lot of us.)

    (edit: seriously, tough crowd. hovering between -2 and -4. Like, this is a light-hearted joke. Not even insulting anyone, either.)

  18. 18. ChoGGi||context
    No jokes allowed here.

    I chuckled.

    If you add something to the conversation and sneak the joke in, it'll usually pass by the fun police.

  19. 19. cj||context
    > line between good and evil

    Talking about good and evil in tech is a slippery slope.

    What's worse, working at Meta building products causing addiction in kids, or building an adult content site?

    I think there's an argument that Meta is morally worse, yet there's no stigma associated with having Meta on your resume. I find that interesting.

  20. 20. ohyoutravel||context
    Meta isn’t as blatant about it, but they’re arguably much worse than anything else listed here. I think because it has legitimate uses up front, like keeping up with your friends or selling something on the marketplace, and the true evil is just below that veneer. Gambling and payday lending is right out front.
  21. 21. juliushuijnk||context
    > yet there's no stigma associated with having Meta on your resume.

    You think so?

  22. 22. gosub100||context
    Let me challenge your POV for a moment..

    What about proportionally of abuse?

    How many married people met on fb? Estranged family members reunited, long lost friends who found each other again? Etc.

    It's impossible to know the number for those, but I vividly remember how difficult it was to find people before fb. And they made it trivial because of critical mass.

    I'll acknowledge that this has also led to a lot of unwanted "finding" too. Again, we cannot calculate. But it's worth bringing up proportionality. Because you could make the same argument about a mass retailer like Walmart. They sell tires that were used in drunk driving crashes, they sold food eaten by obese people, they sold cigarettes (at least thru the 90s) to lung cancer victims, etc. You can skew the data however you like because they sold items to so many customers. But they also fed a lot of families and reduced the cost of living (sometimes by nefarious means) for a lot of poor people.

  23. 23. LorenPechtel||context
    Facebook, as a community is fine.

    The evil lies in the feed. All the standard addiction techniques are present. All the engineering to promote "engagement" is actually basically addiction. And the attempts to show you want you want have a strong tendency to show you more extreme versions of anything you previously watched. It's very, very easy for it to lead you down a rabbit hole into extremist territory. It's inherent in any such prediction algorithm unless somehow the selector understands to bias away from extremism.

  24. 24. raincole||context
    The article is about payment providers.

    Do you think payment providers should act like moral police that decide how the customers can spend their money? If so, do you think Google/Apple/Microsoft should have a say in which apps the users can install? Should ISPs decide which sites the users can access?

  25. 25. projektfu||context
    The article does talk about church and social gatherings, and uncomfortable SOs?
  26. 26. subscribed||context
    Remember that payment providers are happy with X openly selling access to the CSAM generator (Grok).
  27. 27. melenaboija||context
    That is successful and makes tons of money.

    The author is saying it explicitly, you can’t flex as normal people do so you have to feed your ego finding different ways such as anonymous posts. Or talking to an stranger being drunk.

  28. 28. antonvs||context
    > a startup that combines payday-lending and day-trading

    Add in crypto and some AI, and there’s a $50m funding round waiting for you.

  29. 29. littlecranky67||context
    > A regular provider charges a regular commission but will not work with you, while another will want a commission 10 times higher and will agree, but may stop working with you at any time.

    I know I will get downvoted for this because it is an unpopular opinion, but this exactly the reason why we need bitcoin as a means of payments without any middlemen involved.

  30. 30. jfrbfbreudh||context
    Yes, because bitcoin transaction costs never surge in price.
  31. 31. littlecranky67||context
    They don't, because you would transfer them via lightning, of course. No one want to pay their porn subscription with traceable onchain transactions.
  32. 32. jfrbfbreudh||context
    TIL
  33. 33. rationalist||context
    FYI, Bitcoin proponents seem to "forget" that Lightning transactions are traceable by the Lightning node operator, whomever that might be.
  34. 34. littlecranky67||context
    You can operate your own node (I do). Plus you are not up2date. Trampoline payments were recently introduced, and a client can insert several trampolines. So even if you use a hosted single upstream node, that node can not trace the target. BOLT12 which is currently finalized also hides recipients from invoices.

    The thing about layer 2 solutions is, they evolve much faster than the base layer (bitcoin). So dont trust statements that are some years old.

  35. 35. brohee||context
    The miners are the middlemen, and they can chose to take your transaction or not. Should bitcoin ever be actually used for payment, it's not to too far fetched to think miners could be forbidden to validate transactions involving a blacklist of addresses...
  36. 36. littlecranky67||context
    Partly true, the miners decide. However, "the miners" is not a single person or group, but are distributed world wide under control of different people and pools having different incentives - albeit, making money is the far most common incentive. I.e. a miner can reject your transaction, but you can gradually increase the fee (replace-by-fee) until someone picks it up.

    Plus, on-chain transactions would NOT be used to pay 10€/Month subscriptions. The lightning network (a bitcoin layer-2 network) handles transactions instantly and with lower fees. No miners involved in individual payments here (only for channel creation).

  37. 37. subscribed||context
    Bitcoin is probably the worst choice you could make.

    Public to the point of the transaction getting linked to your identity at some point, crazy inefficient in terms of energy use, very very slow and crazy expensive.

    There are so many better ways to use crypto to pay for things and you decided to suggest bitcoin?

  38. 38. littlecranky67||context
    There are three older threads down into which I mention lightning - which preserves privacy and is still bitcoin -just a layer 2 network. Why is everybody on HN stuck on Bitcoin knowledge from 2021? In 2026 you can even send stablecoins - such as USDT - over Lightning backend by bitcoins taproot asset management protol - no other blockchain except bitcoin involved.
  39. 39. subscribed||context
    You said bitcoin, not lighting - you don't seriously expect me to trawl through all your posts in sibling threads to try to guess that you said one thing and meant another?

    And you seem to be really really convinced that bitcoin is the way, by going the quite a length and bringing some contraptions to say they're bitcoin-based solutions somewhat providing what other coins/network already offer - better.

    And concerning lightning, it only "preserves privacy" when you're extremely careful with how you use it: https://stateofsurveillance.org/articles/technical/lightning...

    Still the worst idea.

  40. 40. littlecranky67||context
    The threads are literally 3 lines down, mate.
  41. 41. b40d-48b2-979e||context

        You may have a cool product in the field of sports betting, casinos, or
        lotteries. But almost all social networks and search engines won’t let you
        advertise without a license from the required jurisdiction.
    
    Good. You should face social stigma for creating products that literally ruin people's lives.
  42. 42. antonymoose||context
    Not to mention the entitlement of startups to just flaunt laws and regulations.

    Still kills me to this day Uber and AirBNB running illegal billion dollar operations. I suppose one can at least say Uber mitigates drunk driving tendencies. As far as AirBNB goes, it can rot straight in hell. My hometown is now 20% AirBNB, they ran illegally for many years, and this completely prices out normal folks trying to live near their families.

  43. 43. RHSeeger||context
    I don't have a problem with them actively choosing to break laws to protest the laws themselves; to try to get them changed. Civil disobedience is a long standing practice. However, part of doing that is facing the consequences of breaking those laws; being arrested, etc. Just because _you_ think the law isn't just doesn't mean it's not a law - it just means you think it should be changed.

    And the companies in question break the law and then whine and complain like they shouldn't need to face the consequences; like the law shouldn't apply to them because they don't think it's fair.

  44. 44. watwut||context
    Meh. What they are doing is NOT civil disobedience and protest. What they are doing is just normal breaking the law for profit thing.

    That being said, I also dont think that civil disobedience means you have to accept whatever harsh punishment whatever authoritarian is using. It is actually ok to avoid those.

  45. 45. mcmcmc||context
    Yep. This would be like saying illegal dumping of hazardous waste is the same as protesting environmental protection laws. It’s just for-profit crime.
  46. 46. Forgeties79||context
    >I don't have a problem with them actively choosing to break laws to protest the laws themselves

    Do you truly believe this is some protest action by Airbnb? Because I think most of us rightly characterize it as "intentionally breaking the law for profit" and little more than that.

    I'm not sure I like seeing their behavior compared to legitimate protests and activist work. That seems rather insulting to the people and organizations who actually take real risks for the public good. This is a silicon valley startup, a VC-funded profit machine disrupting communities around the world by breaking the law. To paint this as somehow altruistic is a novel take to say the least.

  47. 47. AnthonyMouse||context
    > However, part of doing that is facing the consequences of breaking those laws; being arrested, etc.

    This form of civil disobedience is effective against bad laws that nevertheless assign punishments proportional to the nominal offense. If "demonstrations without a permit" is punished by a week in jail and they won't give you a permit then you do the demonstration and spend the week in jail. A week later you're back out there demonstrating again. MLK Jr. was arrested 29 times in a span of 11 years.

    It doesn't really work in the modern system which is tuned for coercing plea bargains and full of three strikes laws, because then "pissing off the government" is an aggravating factor that causes them to stack more charges until you're facing years instead of days. Then you're not making a point through a willingness to spend a few nights in a cell before your next press conference, you're getting taken off the board.

    It also never really worked against bad economic rules because the nature of bad economic rules is to make good economic behavior uneconomical, like converting units to types in higher demand or funding new construction. The deleterious effect of the rule is that instead of it costing $50,000 to add a housing unit, it costs $500,000. But doing civil disobedience by building it anyway would catch you >$500,000 in fines and penalties, or carries penalties like demolition of the structure. So the bad law acts as an extremely effective deterrent against doing the good thing by making it uneconomical regardless of whether you follow the law or you don't. A bankrupt company can't continue to advocate for change or serve as an example of doing something good.

    And if they actually did pay the fines then instead of people saying "that's not real civil disobedience" they would be saying "look at these lawless corporations paying token fines as a cost of doing business" and arguing for the penalties to be increased to a level that would bankrupt them wherever that isn't already the case.

    So the remaining option is to break the law and then argue that the law is harmful and shouldn't be enforced.

  48. 48. lopsotronic||context
    If you can figure out a Gig Economy way to get robot/remote/AI pilots into airline cockpits, you will make a mint. "What? I can save ten bucks on airfare if I accept a robot pilot? GIVE ME THAT TICKET"

    A mint we will then need to spend on bribes to ALPA. DoT is almost entirely captured now, so that's less of a problem.

    In fact, here's a much better get-rich app / scheme: use AI to find regulatory situations that are both easy to break and profitable to break and where enforcement is usually just done to poor people. The Ubermaker. Why dig a gold mine when you can sell the shovels.

  49. 49. b40d-48b2-979e||context
    This comment severely lacks second-order thinking. The regulations exist for a reason. Removing them because some billionaire wants to make a buck is not a good reason.
  50. 50. AnthonyMouse||context
    > In fact, here's a much better get-rich app / scheme: use AI to find regulatory situations that are both easy to break and profitable to break and where enforcement is usually just done to poor people.

    How about a less cynical alternative: Use it to find ways to defeat regulatory capture so that you can enter a large market which is currently locked up by incumbents, or make more in an ancillary market from doing "commoditize your complement" on the one which is currently captured.

  51. 51. AnthonyMouse||context
    > My hometown is now 20% AirBNB, they ran illegally for many years, and this completely prices out normal folks trying to live near their families.

    If people are getting priced out, that implies that either the cost of a unit is more than the cost of construction, or that the cost of construction is unreasonably high. If it's the first one the higher demand should just lead to more construction instead of higher prices, because units that sell for more than they cost to build are profitable to build and supply expands until the price falls below the cost. If it's the second one, the actual source of your problem is high regulatory costs and NIMBYism rather than AirBNB.

  52. 52. gosub100||context
    The taxi medallion racket in NYC was pretty bad. I do agree it must be regulated but their system was broken. I am interested in the legal maneuvering they employed to actually win in court, but I've never seen a breakdown.

    That said I mostly agree with your points. But why didn't cab companies innovate and provide us with the same service? A yellow spandex cover that converts any car into a cab, a points program giving discounts, a ride share app that carries 5 people who all ride the same route? They instead provided nothing, other than dirty cabs with bullet proof glass (in "gun free" zones nonetheless)

  53. 53. Animats||context
    "Flout", not "flaunt".
  54. 54. nickflw||context
    So true. I wish alcohol, tobacco, gun and insurance companies and their employees faced the same stigma.
  55. 55. engineer_22||context
    I live in New York. A very old very famous manufacturer of firearms, Remington Arms, which employed hundreds of people and was the economic engine of its community was forced by the State of New York to shut down. That community cannot replace what was lost when the factory closed. Poverty, crime, drugs have moved in to the void.

    You may be right that guns are are corrosive to a democratic society, that's an open debate. But the people who depended on that factory had the rug pulled and real harm was done without any regard to their welfare. And not everyone who depended on the factory worked there, deli owners and dry cleaners, these types of legitimate businesses are damaged when a major employer closes doors.

    I suppose I relate this story to you just to show that, there are other people who think like you, guns are stigmatized, and it has a real human cost. We should not be flippant with our neighbor's well being, because we can't predict the turns of fate, one day it might be our turn.

  56. 56. malfist||context
    Your statement is not grounded in the truth. Remnington did not shut down because of government interference. They employed a grand total of 100 people in NY. Hardly the "economic engine of its community"

    They shutdown because they sold 7.5 million guns that could fire without someone pulling the trigger and 60 minutes exposed it.

    And you should know that their building is being converted into a 250,000 sqft AI data center. So it's not like employment is just lost in the area.

  57. 57. BigTTYGothGF||context
    > their building is being converted into a 250,000 sqft AI data center

    Haven't the locals suffered enough already?

  58. 58. usui||context
    What are you talking about regarding firing guns without pulling the trigger?
  59. 59. malfist||context
  60. 60. mcmcmc||context
    Sorry do you think data centers actually provide meaningful jobs? Oh boy, 10 whole openings for security guards
  61. 61. subscribed||context
    And couple hundred for the specialists.
  62. 62. LorenPechtel||context
    Yup. When you make a boo-boo that big there's no recovery. And since they hid the problem it grew and grew. Personally, I would like to see hiding major safety defects become a criminal charge with the provision that if you go to the cops before they come looking that you're not guilty even if you share in the guilt.
  63. 63. master-lincoln||context
    straw man argument. This was about social stigma of weapons and you told a story about a factory being force closed and the surrounding community degrading by that.

    We should not keep bad things alive just because jobs depend on it.

  64. 64. engineer_22||context
    Its not a straw man, its not even an argument, it's just what happened.
  65. 65. jbxntuehineoh||context
    > its not even an argument, it's just what happened

    of course you're implicitly making an argument, you really expect us to think that you just decided to post some random anecdote apropos of nothing?

  66. 66. aniviacat||context
    You could justify the existence of any employer with that reasoning though, no matter how evil.

    Any reasoning that can justify even an absurdly evil employer's existence is flawed.

  67. 67. BigTTYGothGF||context
    > forced by the State of New York to shut down

    Could you expand on this a little bit? Are you referring to the NY SAFE act? I'm seeing a few lines in their wiki page that suggest otherwise:

    * In June 2007, a private equity firm, Cerberus Capital Management, acquired Remington Arms for $370 million, including $252 million in assumed debt.

    * Remington filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection in March 2018, having accumulated over $950 million in debt

    * In July 2020, Remington again filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection.

  68. 68. theLiminator||context
    How about social media companies, or quasi-monopoly employees (essentially all of FANGMAN)?

    What about pharma and for-profit healthcare employees?

  69. 69. Legend2440||context
    One of these things is not like the others.

    Insurance is a tool for spreading risk, and modern society could not operate without it.

  70. 70. stevenwoo||context
    I think to read the comment in best possible interpretation- they meant private health insurance in the USA.
  71. 71. zbentley||context
    Yes, but the incentives created by that system lead to insurance adjudicators operating with extreme adversariality towards the insured. Add to that the extreme inelasticity of demand for insured products (e.g. healthcare, or getting access to a car to use to commute after one is totaled), regulatory capture of insured products/services by insurers, and time, and you get pretty toxic systems wherein insurers exert upwards price pressure without significant checks.
  72. 72. jmkd||context
    There are plenty of other products that literally ruin people's lives: alcohol, tobacco, sugar, pharmaceuticals, credit cards, firearms, timeshares, junk food. Society has them all on very different parts of a stigma spectrum.

    Honest question: why is this line so clear for you?

  73. 73. malfist||context
    Honest question, why isn't the line so clear for you?

    We're talking about a product built to make people's lives worse while extracting wealth from them that get them addicted as well.

  74. 74. embedding-shape||context
    > We're talking about a product built to make people's lives worse while extracting wealth from them that get them addicted as well.

    That's most of the products being sold today, you think the most for-profit companies sell things and services in order to improve the world? They're selling stuff because they want to make money, if they can make someone addicted + extract wealth from them, then in their world that's a no-brainer.

  75. 75. malfist||context
    > That's most of the products being sold today

    That's just not true at all. The fruit I buy is designed to make my life worse? The vacuum cleaner? The lawn mower? The workout equipment? The standing desk for my office? The clothing I buy?

  76. 76. embedding-shape||context
    Yes, literally all those things are decreasing in quality because the companies producing and selling these want higher margins. Have you not noticed the sharp drop in quality and durability in made stuff compared to 20-30 years ago? Almost all those things are worse and lasts less today than they used to.
  77. 77. Edman274||context
    Do you feel and have the subjective experience of feeling like you're arguing in good faith right now?
  78. 78. bombcar||context
    There's some cases where that may be true, but they listed a few:

    * fruit - I can get any fruit anytime in the year, and it seems fine

    * vacuum cleaner - my Miele is still running ten years later and still available new

    * The lawn mower - the M18 mower cuts great and uses no gas and just works - much better than the previous PoS

    * workout equipment - I don't have much here, but my rowing machine is still going strong

    * standing desk - the uplift desk seems quite good quality

    * clothing - this might be the only one, but even the walmart crap I get is better than the walmart crap from a decade ago

  79. 79. subscribed||context
    If you claim you can get "any fruit anytime in the year and it seems fine", it's probably because you'd inky ever had supermarket fruit-like products which are about as similar to the proper ones as McDonald's Big Mac is similar to the proper burger.

    Go to the actual farm in strawberries season next time, get yourself some, and you'll get that. And it's like this with almost every single fruit.

  80. 80. TheOtherHobbes||context
    German study:

    "The proportion of devices which had to be replaced within five years due to a defect rose quite sharply, from 3.5% in 2004 to 8.3% in 2012."

    https://www.umweltbundesamt.de/en/press/pressinformation/obs...

    Electronics are more likely to be obsolete for technical reasons, but - for example - modern dishwashers and dryers are far more likely to have cheap plastic parts that fail more quickly. Even for brands with premium price tags.

    With clothes, fast fashion is designed down to a budget and up to a price. For consumer brands, the more expensive something is the more disposable it is and the shorter its working life.

    https://irispublishers.com/jtsft/fulltext/analysis-of-qualit...

  81. 81. darkwater||context
    Half of the list by GP shares these same characteristics, unfortunately. The only one that is slowly - but not even steadily - going towards the same stigma is tobacco.
  82. 82. jmkd||context
    Okay sounds like we agree that sugar and junk food should be on the wrong side of the line, but turns out those industries have very little stigma. Who is standing outside the school gates protesting against big cola? My point is it's complicated, ambiguous, sometimes hypocritical, differs by jurisdiction and so on. None of it is clear.
  83. 83. mcmcmc||context
    Ah yes, the great evil of sugar… which our bodies require for energy. Seriously, your brain needs glucose. Ask a diabetic if sugar is evil
  84. 84. john_strinlai||context
    when people talk about sugar in the unhealthy context, they are referring to things like how a single can of dr. pepper has 40-50 grams of sugar in it.
  85. 85. hn_acc1||context
    You mean, like hyperglycemia?
  86. 86. everforward||context
    This is not the first time I’ve seen this, and it’s misleading. Your brain needs glucose, as does the rest of your body. You do not need to eat glucose, your body can synthesize it from non-glucose sources. You can absolutely survive on a diet with 0 glucose.

    I don’t have an issue with people eating sugar, but it is not a necessary nutrient.

  87. 87. gzread||context
    Are you diabetic? If you aren't diabetic, your body can manage its own sugar.
  88. 88. subscribed||context
    Does your brain necessarily *need* HFCS/sucrose, or will it work with wholegrain diet, fruits, vegetables, legumes?

    It just seems that you're arguing that without added, pure sugar in drinks/foods your body and brain would break down, but that would be factually incorrect*

    *unless you're also suffering from some exceedingly rare genetic conditions affecting certain metabolic paths but it's unlikely you'd live to tell the story.

  89. 89. hn_acc1||context
    There have been pushes to remove soda from school vending machines, limit the size / add extra taxes on bigger soda containers, etc. But it's often "crazy California" doing it, so a whole chunk of the country writes it off as political or something, or it doesn't get passed due to lobbying, etc. But it's not true that no one is trying to stop it.

    As much as I like a cold Coke (Coke >>> Pepsi :-) on a hot day, I also realize it's bad for me, and I'm drinking a lot more Spindrift these days. And despite the fact that I rarely drink more than say, 2 cans a day (i.e. I can generally control it), I would still vote to limit the amount of sugar in any beverage to like 1/10 that of Coke, just for general health reasons. Of course, then stores will probably see an uptick in sugar cube sales or something.. Gotta feed the addiction.

  90. 90. egorfine||context
    The majority of food sold in the US satisfies the criteria you have laid out here.

    Is the line still clear?

  91. 91. malfist||context
    My neighbor got robbed the other day walking home from work. That means it's okay for me to rob them too, right?
  92. 92. subscribed||context
    You're trying to make ad absurdum but this been in effect decriminalised in many countries.

    In the UK for example the police got so defunded, damaged and wrecked, that they will straight out do their best to refuse investigating most crimes, eg robbery, burglary, assault, theft, even if you literally hand them evidence ("I saw my neighbour Tim doing that and I have CCTV", "my stolen bike is literally in that garage, I have tracker and I made it make a sound").

    Police is so defunded and demoralised that they focus on arresting disabled and pensioners for opposing genocide and throw people into the jail for having a peaceful protest planning zoom call - for longer they would serve for rape.

    So you tried to joke but in fact many crimes have been decriminalised.

  93. 93. gzread||context
    I think it's like this in most countries - the police will only care about protecting the elite class. Sometimes the elite class feel threatened by high crime levels so the police will crack down on petty crime, but it's always in a way that makes the numbers look good, not a way that keeps people safe. They'll investigate the crimes that are easiest to prosecute.
  94. 94. hn_acc1||context
    I would like the majority of food sold in the US to improve in quality. I would support passing legislation to force the issue.
  95. 95. derangedHorse||context
    "Built to make people's lives worse" is an opinion. There are people who gamble without getting addicted and treat it as good fun. Why shouldn't I be able to bet a small amount on a team I like in Fantasy Football? I've never gambled more than I could afford to lose nor have I felt the need to do it habitually. I get that there are some people who are not like me, but you seem to think that there are only people who are not like me that use these types of services.
  96. 96. b40d-48b2-979e||context
    There's a difference between betting between your friends on FF versus creating a system of gambling that takes advantage of the least fortunate among us.
  97. 97. itake||context
    This is the same thinking that governments are justify the age verification and ID tracking: the system makes an opportunity for old people to get scammed, so everyone needs to give up their privacy.
  98. 98. conception||context
    Well… I think you’re conflating the stated reason for solving a problem versus what these “solutions” are actually trying to do.
  99. 99. mcmcmc||context
    Why do you need a commercial service to do that? Gambling isn’t bad inherently, but for-profit gambling companies have too many perverse incentives
  100. 100. stronglikedan||context
    I know plenty of folks who enjoy a little gambling without letting it get them into trouble, so the product couldn't be "built to make people's lives worse". Why should they have something taken away just because some other people can't control themselves?
  101. 101. gempir||context
    No single person can draw that line, that's what Courts and Laws are for. And some of the industries play more dirty and try to manipulate that due process, others failed.

    But that's what we have, it's never black & white. Always a process and always evolving.

  102. 102. sakisv||context
    Not the original person you replied to, but as far as I'm concerned there are a few questions that could very easily indicate which side of the line is something.

    E.g.

    - Is it addictive?

    - Does it have the potential to destroy lives?

    - Does it have the potential to destroy lives in seconds?

    - Does it have a strong lobbying mechanism behind it? (n.b. things that are good and nice rarely need someone to bribe people to accept them)

    or simply:

    - Would you be worried if your child did it?

    I think the number of "yes" that you get draws a very clear line.

  103. 103. jmkd||context
    Your question ramp makes sense to me except in two ways: 1. why this "destroy lives in seconds?" question? 2. where do you see sugar sitting here?
  104. 104. ambicapter||context
    He's obviously talking about alcohol (it takes seconds to consume an amount of alcohol that can result in death, yours or someone else's from a fight or car crash) and firearms (should be obvious).

    Sounds like you're implying some sort of mischaracterization of sugar here which minimizes the former in a weird way.

  105. 105. sakisv||context
    I wanted to draw the distinction between something that destroys lives over a longer period of time (smoking) VS something like gambling where you could lose your life's savings in seconds.

    The alcohol mentioned in a sibling comment also ticks the box.

    For the sugar, I'd say yes, no, no, yes and "not too much, but I'm keeping an eye out".

  106. 106. egorfine||context
    These questions sound very rational until you realize that sugar, performance cars, military technology and history lessons can tick all those boxes.
  107. 107. submerge||context
    Can you recommend a history lesson that will destroy my life in seconds? Book, podcast, youtube would all be acceptable formats.
  108. 108. whattheheckheck||context
    Tim Snyders videos
  109. 109. submerge||context
    Maybe I haven't seen enough of his videos. They seem generally informative? Perhaps a bit depressing but I wouldn't say that watching a Tim Snyder video can ruin your life like gambling can.
  110. 110. schubidubiduba||context
    Not sure if the history lessons are a joke, but sugar is rightfully taxed or otherwise disincentivized in many countries, because it is highly harmful to society as a whole. Sports cars definitely get some yes answers, and are also rightfully taxed in several countries.

    Military technology may be an exception as "necessary evil", but also is a bad example because it id not consumer-oriented.

  111. 111. egorfine||context
    As a Ukrainian I can tell you that deaths from history lessons are pretty much not a joke.
  112. 112. hn_acc1||context
    Ok, so add "is it easy / quick / cheap to acquire?". Performance cars (I take measured risks at the race track) and track days / race tires aren't cheap. Not in any sense of the word.

    Unsafe driving in ANY car? Yes - but that's already illegal.

  113. 113. subscribed||context
    Performance cars are very cheap to acquire temporarily.

    I can literally book right now, for 4 long laps, for £99 any of the following (and that's a a very small subset of 30 similar cars): Lotus Evora / GTR 1200bhp / Lamborghini Gallardo / Dodge Viper SRT VX / Huracan... Unless you'd say these are not performance cars?

  114. 114. cael450||context
    There is a stigma with all of those things except maybe pharmaceuticals (unless you are selling opioids), sugar and junk food (because of their ubiquity).

    The line is clear for some people right away. Other people have to see the effects first hand. When I was younger, I worked in a gas station, and the never-ending line of obviously poor people dropping nearly their entire paychecks on scratchoffs, then buying a case of beer was a formative memory for me. It most states, the lottery is just subsidizing the cost of education on the backs of the poor and uneducated and gambling-addicted so that they don't have to raise property taxes. And that's if the money actually gets spent on education. Sometimes they just turn into slushfunds for pet projects. It's gross.

  115. 115. BigTTYGothGF||context
    Just because there's a spectrum doesn't mean that everything on it is indistinguishable. Everybody draws their own lines, some people count more or fewer things as stigmata, some people's lines are fuzzier than others.
  116. 116. radicalbyte||context
    > pharmaceuticals

    A large number of these literally save people's lives. Anti-biotics, statins, anti-depressives, anti-psychotics, insulin, anti-histamines.

  117. 117. subscribed||context
    Cars can come in the form of ambulances, narcotics can come in form of morphine or cocaine (note the early use in medicine).

    You don't just exclude / include entire class by giving a few examples.

  118. 118. joosters||context
    I think the more relevant point is:

    But almost all social networks and search engines won’t let you advertise without a license from the required jurisdiction.

    Which is a good thing! This is an area full of scammers, if you can't set up your business legally, I'm very happy to hear it's more difficult for you to advertise it.

  119. 119. sigmoid10||context
    I mean, you also can't advertise illegal drugs either. Doesn't seem to curb demand though. It may actually be more beneficial to allow these things more broadly, because then social safety features can be wedged in between consumers and suppliers more easily and they don't have to deal with a gigantic shadow market that already gets stigmatised to death by the rest of the population. Just accept that a certain percentage of the populations has screwed up dopamine households and try to keep them away from gangsters as best you can. That would probably help society as a whole more than banning everything and pretending the problem goes away if you close your eyes.
  120. 120. VectorLock||context
    >Doesn't seem to curb demand though.

    Because its an addictive product. See also: gambling.