NewsLab
Apr 29 10:11 UTC

Habitual coffee intake shapes the microbiome, modifies physiology and cognition (nature.com)

274 points|by scubakid||270 comments|Read full story on nature.com

Comments (270)

120 shown|More comments
  1. 1. neya||context
    The only good thing that keeps me from collapsing into a state of limbo is coffee and now, even that's bad (seems more like a mixed bag, but still)? Sigh.
  2. 2. bee_rider||context
    There have been positive and negative reports for a long long time. If coffee was going to kill us, I’d certainly have died in school!
  3. 3. kulahan||context
    Coffee in general is unreasonably healthy as a beverage. The overwhelming majority of science agrees it’s a quality health drink.
  4. 4. modo_mario||context
    Non-industry funded science?
  5. 5. kulahan||context
    Correct
  6. 6. anon84873628||context
    Don't fret. You're allowed to enjoy things that aren't part of the scientific reductionist longevity influencer lifestyle fad :)
  7. 7. antonvs||context
    Nitpick: What you’re referring to is not scientific.
  8. 8. cyberpunk||context
    Maybe I have some neurological issue or something but whenever I quit coffee I find it extremely difficult to maintain any kind of motivation to sit in an open plan office and code. Coffee makes me a worker bee, I can understand why employers give it away for free.

    So, the coffee stays for now.

  9. 9. neya||context
    Yeah, exactly. I can totally relate to this. I have actually monitored my productivity on an excel sheet and the days with coffee win by a large margin. I am not sure if it's withdrawal symptoms on the days without, though.
  10. 10. hermitcrab||context
    Relax. Tomorrow there will be a paper/article saying coffee is great for you.
  11. 11. fransje26||context
    Did you know:

        By replacing your morning coffee with herbal tea, you can remove up to 87% of the little joy you still have left in your life.  /s
    
    Keep the coffee buddy.
  12. 12. neya||context
    Haha, that was a funny quote!
  13. 13. Izkata||context
    Never forget the Time Travel Dietician (4 minutes): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ua-WVg1SsA
  14. 14. getnormality||context
    Coffee modifies physiology and cognition? You're telling me this for the first time.
  15. 15. ButlerianJihad||context
    I was so surprised at this headline that I nearly leapt out of my chair!
  16. 16. jonplackett||context
    But it says it’s the same for decaf. That is more interesting
  17. 17. aitchnyu||context
    Been treating coffee as caffeine with aroma. Any important points about coffee itself?
  18. 18. triage8004||context
    Humans known since 45 minutes after first drink
  19. 19. alecco||context
    The paper is about previously unknown ways coffee affects the body.
  20. 20. reedf1||context
    At least subjectively, coffee seems to help my memory. But maybe that's why I started drinking coffee?

    I would probably drop coffee it was proven to have negative effects on memory.

  21. 21. bboozzoo||context
    > But maybe that's why I started drinking coffee?

    you don't remember why, do you?

  22. 22. layer8||context
    I’m drinking to forget. ;)
  23. 23. 6LLvveMx2koXfwn||context
    "These findings reveal previously unrecognised effects of coffee on the microbiota–gut–brain axis, suggesting that microbiome profiles could potentially predict coffee consumption patterns", or, perhaps, just ask the patient?
  24. 24. raincole||context
    Could you elaborate on how to interpret your comment without it leading to anti-intellectualism?
  25. 25. 6LLvveMx2koXfwn||context
    It was a joke
  26. 26. colechristensen||context
    You are missing the point.

    If you can predict someone's coffee intake based on testing of their microbiome then you've proven that coffee intake has predictable effects on the microbiome.

    The important part isn't predicting coffee use, it's just the proof that there's you can predict and perhaps control in the opposite direction leading to more research.

  27. 27. wjnc||context
    I have not much followed the science of gut microbiome and psychology. Is this really going where this article is pointing? That we can tease out causation in foods and habits via gut microbiome towards behavior and psychology? Pretty rad.
  28. 28. colechristensen||context
    Yeah there's nontrivial evidence that among other things, the complex community living inside you manipulates your brain.
  29. 29. ButlerianJihad||context
    My psychiatrists agree that “hallucination” (in lay terms: “hearing voices” or “seeing things”) only refers to things that aren’t real.
  30. 30. chneu||context
    There's a decent amount of research going into the hormones that our GI biome produce and how it affects us. Our body has a few different biomes and they all seem to play somewhat important roles.
  31. 31. poly2it||context
    > ... reintroduction triggered acute microbiome changes independent of caffeine.

    This sounds interesting. I've never really considered the constituents of coffee other than caffeine and what unique effects they may bring.

    I wonder if I would experience behavioral effects if I replaced my coffee intake with caffeinated non-coffee drinks or pills?

  32. 32. kulahan||context
    Studies seem to indicate that coffee is at least as healthy, if not healthier than tea, and I have not heard this about caffeine specifically (aka the same effects coming from pills or energy drinks).

    One fun fact: we still haven’t figured out why coffee makes us poop. We’ve studied every chemical in there and can’t seem to find a link, but the association is uh… well-known.

  33. 33. hermitcrab||context
    >why coffee makes us poop.

    That seems to vary wildly between individuals. It doesn't have that effect on me.

  34. 34. pinkmuffinere||context
    I’m super interested in this sort of study! However, it looks like n=62 here, which I think weakens the results —they’re probably just useful as suggestions of possible effects. Also, any food is expected to have similar effects on the microbiome. They didn’t test caffeine in isolation. In some ways that’s better (I don’t consume caffeine in isolation), but in some ways that’s less useful (it’s possible you get similar results from many random vegetables)
  35. 35. sixtyj||context
    In 1995, NASA did spiders experiment. Caffeine is a siginificant impulsivity trigger. :)

    https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/nasa-spiders-drugs-experime...

  36. 36. jayd16||context
    Nice web, Mr. Crack spider.
  37. 37. ivell||context
    LSD has unconnected strands in the air. I guess this is expected.
  38. 38. dotancohen||context
    The LSD and sleeping pills were not in the original study I believe. That might be an artists representation of the image at the bottom of the original study, which I remember showed the results in a single row.
  39. 39. ButlerianJihad||context
    Warning: those photos in the dot-com website are negative images, not the original black-on-white. Lousy with animated ad banners, too.

    https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/20100033433/downloads/20...

    Don't ask me why some blogger posted the PDF in 2013, and also don't ask me how English Wikipedia editors determined that a Wordpress blog is a "Reliable Secondary Source". I did locate the original on NASA's own website. Public Domain (USGov).

  40. 40. khalic||context
    Thanks for the time capsule. Boy that’s a lot of ads (live video on a computer! Wow!).

    The poor marijuana spider tried really hard

  41. 41. Scipio_Afri||context
    What a find! It's on page 106 but I didn't immediately do a control-f to find it or look at the table of contents. My gosh, all the stuff I flipped through before that... some things haven't changed (e.g. Digikey and National Instruments ads).
  42. 42. bhaney||context
    > They didn’t test caffeine in isolation

    But they did test both caffeinated and uncaffeinated coffee, and found the same effects in both, indicating that the effect is caused by something in coffee other than the caffeine

  43. 43. krige||context
    Doesn't decaf also contain caffeine, just a lot less of it?
  44. 44. anon84873628||context
    Typical extraction yield is 18-20%. For a 20g dose that's 4g of material consumed, or about 30 individual beans.

    I wonder if you could find similar effects with 4g or broccoli sprouts, or garlic, or ginger, or cumin seed, shiitake mushroom, seaweed, soursop leaf, or...

  45. 45. satvikpendem||context
    What's cool is this effect exists even in decaf coffee, as someone who primarily drinks decaf black, for flavor and for a good night's rest as I'm sensitive to caffeine.
  46. 46. Kelteseth||context
    What kind of decaf coffee do you drink? There are differences between the cheap chemical Methylene way to create decaf coffee and the expensive co2 way to get rid of the caffeine.

    https://cleanlabelproject.org/wp-content/uploads/CLP-Decaf-C...

  47. 47. satvikpendem||context
    I don't buy the methylene processed ones, generally it's Swiss water processed or like you said the CO2 processed ones.
  48. 48. Schlagbohrer||context
    Is that methylene way even legal? It basically uses petroleum fuel in the process right? I assume it was outlawed a long time ago but that might be extreme naievete for US regulatory capability...
  49. 49. eichin||context
    https://www.thedecafproject.com/ (Dec 2024) let you order matching swiss water, CO₂, and Ethyl Acetate (sugar cane byproduct) decaffeinated coffee from the same batches of beans. The EPA banned methylene chloride earlier in that year, but because of toxicity to workers, not because of risk from the resulting coffee itself (and it looks like the FDA didn't ban it.) So I guess you couldn't make decaf with it in the US but you could probably still import and sell it?
  50. 50. IAmBroom||context
    I'm pretty sure I'm allergic to methylene-decaffeinated coffee. I discovered in the early 1990s that I'd get sneezy almost every time I drink decaf office coffee, but my home decaf didn't do that to me.

    Hasn't happened in a long time, probably due to (1) avoiding cheap decaf and (2) the banning of meth-coffee (heh) in the US.

  51. 51. testemailfordg2||context
    Funded by the Institute for Scientific Information on Coffee (ISIC) — an industry body — which is a notable conflict of interest the authors disclose but don't extensively discuss
  52. 52. rapidaneurism||context
    It does not sound like an outcome that big coffee paid for it to be so:

    Behaviourally, coffee drinkers exhibited greater impulsivity and emotional reactivity, whereas non-coffee drinkers demonstrated better memory performance.

  53. 53. selcuka||context
    > It does not sound like an outcome that big coffee paid for it to be so:

    Who said anything about big coffee? These guys might be a secret, anti-coffee organisation. /s

  54. 54. fedeb95||context
    it's the barley cartel.
  55. 55. IAmBroom||context
    I knew it! Microchips in my beer. That's why I only drink it from aluminum cans, to foil the transmissions.
  56. 56. iammjm||context
    Do they though? Any data on that? Also, the highly caffeinated people might also be sleep deprived, which impacts memory and emotional regulation
  57. 57. Antibabelic||context
    The data is in the linked paper. It's a direct quote from the abstract.
  58. 58. oharapj||context
    Please delete this comment. It’s embarrassing
  59. 59. baxtr||context
    Maybe he forgot?
  60. 60. fc417fc802||context
    Ah yes, yet another in the long line of results which confirm our suspicion of water being wet to have been right all along. In this case it's something that anyone who has spent a significant amount of time around routine coffee drinkers and regularly consumed it themselves already took for granted.
  61. 61. zug_zug||context
    Or, maybe this is the cleaned-up interpretation
  62. 62. culi||context
    The first paragraph of the introduction touts all the health benefits of coffee.

    I don't necessarily deny these benefits but it feels weird for a scientific paper to hedge its bets like this.

    > Moderate coffee consumption is associated with various health benefits, including reduced risks of type 2 diabetes, liver disease, cardiovascular diseases, and cancer3. In a large cross-sectional study of 468,629 individuals without clinical cardiovascular disease, light-to-moderate coffee consumption was linked to lower rates of all-cause mortality, cardiovascular mortality, and stroke incidence4. Furthermore, coffee intake is consistently associated with a reduced risk of Parkinson’s disease in a dose-dependent manner, across multiple human cohorts5,6,7. Meta-analyses have also found that coffee consumers face a lower risk of depression8,9, and one meta-analysis of cohort studies examining cognitive decline, showed that coffee consumption accounted for a 27% reduction in the incidence of Alzheimer’s disease

    It's like they're starting off with "Now don't get me wrong. Coffee will cure cancer, but..."

  63. 63. culi||context
    Yeah it's telling how ISIC is covering this study. Their title is:

    > New research reveals mechanisms behind coffee’s positive effects on the gut-brain axis

    https://www.coffeeandhealth.org/health/media-content/news-al...

  64. 64. carabiner||context
    Every damn time, for chocolate, coffee, and red wine "studies."
  65. 65. 46493168||context
    Who else would fund a study?
  66. 66. culi||context
    It'd be nice if the gov't could do it. Or at least enforced some regulation so that a study is forced to preprint so we at least know when a study was attempted but didn't end up publishing the results

    Ultimately these industry-funded studies are still gov't funded as well. They are "public-private partnerships" but it's stupid how we don't talk about the fact that usually the majority of the grants come from the gov't. Even when a study is mostly funded by the industry it's relying on utilize existing infrastructure or early-stage research initiated by government funds.

  67. 67. TazeTSchnitzel||context
    After habitually consuming caffeine (not in coffee form) daily, usually multiple times a day, for more than a decade, a horrible mental health incident happened to me that forced me to stop it for a while. Afterwards I didn't resume the habit, and so I no longer have a tolerance.

    This has let me evaluate what caffeine does with fresh eyes, so to say, because I can now consume it occasionally while having many non-caffeinated days to compare to. It's a profoundly psychoactive substance and does a lot of things to cognition. I guess I have decided I don't enjoy how it feels, having previously been dependent on it.

  68. 68. readthenotes1||context
    Notably, the article is looking at coffee, both caffeinated and decaffeinated. There is a lot more to coffee than just caffeine...
  69. 69. mixedCase||context
    The overwhelming majority of the enjoyable coffee experiences are caffeinated. While there is good decaf out there it's not the norm, specially in smaller markets.
  70. 70. tsimionescu||context
    I think they meant that coffee contains a lot of other compounds than just caffeine, which something like energy drinks or teas will not include. So you can't necessarily extend conclusions from a study on consumption of coffee to effects that other drinks that happen to include caffeine might have.

    Edit: this is especially relevant here, as the study found similar effects in decaffeinated coffee drinkers. So the effects they observed, if real, are not related to caffeine.

  71. 71. rimliu||context
    How do you know that caffeine was the cause?
  72. 72. ivan_gammel||context
    This of course cannot be generalized, but withdrawal is quite noticeable for personal well-being in a positive way.
  73. 73. TazeTSchnitzel||context
    I didn't say it was the cause of the mental health incident! And I don't believe it to have been "the cause", either. It just happens to have been the thing that caused me to abruptly stop.

    It likely was a contributor, insofar as the incident had poor sleep as a contributing factor, and I do know with some certainty the caffeine habit had been causing some (likely not all) of my sleep problems. I can also tell you the very worst day of that incident was when I mistakenly consumed caffeine again prior to being recovered enough for that to be safe; that was a horrible glimpse at what that drug can do to you when you're in an already very unstable state. Caffeine definitely can aggravate all kinds of symptoms, even when you're in a relatively stable state. It's a stimulant, after all.

    But I think caffeine consumption is… only one factor of many in causes of that incident, and doesn't deserve any special blame. The relevance of the mental health incident here is really that it gave me a chance and a good reason to abruptly stop, and therefore also the opportunity to see what getting the brain back into the caffeination ritual again feels like. (I've tried taking it for a few consecutive days more than once since then, and not particularly enjoyed it. I've also tried it on single isolated days.)

  74. 74. barrenko||context
    Coffee is a plant demon that created the western civilization as we know it today...
  75. 75. fermiNitambh||context
    I like this worldview. Prior to coffee, Europe was in the grip of the beer dwarves. Coffee demons took over and invented nationalism, capitalism and Keynesian economics.
  76. 76. anonym29||context
    At least the coffee demons aren't quite as bad as the amphetamine demons that produced Nazi Germany.
  77. 77. barrenko||context
    We could view as amphetamine vs. coffee / black tea.
  78. 78. nervousvarun||context
    Obligatory recommendation for: Uncommon Grounds: The History of Coffee and How it Transformed our World by Mark Pendergrast

    Fantastic book. I first encountered it...in a coffee shop :) Read a chapter and immediately bought the book for myself.

  79. 79. malicka||context
    Putting Keynesian economics next to nationalism on the evil list was so funny, I almost spit out my coffee.
  80. 80. sph||context
    Is it? Keynesian economics created the economic framework to finance World Wars.
  81. 81. 1234letshaveatw||context
    colonizer fuel
  82. 82. BatteryMountain||context
    I've had the same experience. Caffeine is super addicting, the ritual & habits surrounding it is a potent pull. For myself, it makes me erratic, impulsive, more reactive and agitated. One cup a day puts me on edge, makes me sweat more, makes me more intolerant, makes everything feel too slow. It such a sneaky drug and it can really get under your skin without you realizing how much it changes you.
  83. 83. orphea||context
    I don't have the same experience, and I drink one cup of coffee (270 ml) almost every day. No agitation, no impulsiveness. I can drink coffee in late evening (let's say 8 pm) and sleep well. I guess I'm trying to say that we should not project our own experience on others, everyone is different.
  84. 84. CuriousRose||context
    In my experience, this is common among people with ADHD (myself, friends with ADHD, family with ADHD, psychologist’s patients anecdotal evidence). YMMV
  85. 85. BatteryMountain||context
    I have adhd too, but cannot use stimulant medications (they are too strong). I've had to use non-stim meds.

    What if long term caffeine use causes some of the adhd symptoms? It interesting to ponder because if I stop using caffeine for a month, some of my adhd symtoms go away completely. I've done stints of complete caffeine breaks, content consumption breaks (one week or more without screens) and I felt amazing and alive. The first couple of days of using caffeine feels amazing but then I feel dead inside again and live like a robot. So in my mind, caffeine is my main target when I try to adjust my routine/behaviours.

  86. 86. orphea||context
    Hmm, this is an interesting observation. I do have signs of ADHD.
  87. 87. sph||context
    It's not, really. Coffee is an anxiety and insomnia machine for me, while nothing made me as calm as amphetamine (even my heart rate was lower).

    I do have a professional diagnosis for ADHD.

  88. 88. apples_oranges||context
    Agree, I drink it a lot and then stop drinking it at least once a year for a few weeks, and for sure it's a different mode of mind, but can't really qualify it besides that I remember my thinking being softer, calmer and perhaps even "more correct" without coffee.

    (But I never had any mental-health incidents, and I drink a lot of it, more than all people that I personally know.)

  89. 89. yetihehe||context
    For many years I go to the same vacation spot (kayaking in the most beautiful nature place I have seen) and go cold-turkey. I didn't notice any side effects of lack of coffee besides slower muddier thinking. After I go back and start drinking coffee, feel back to normal.

    I also had a very big life altering mental health incident very recently, drank A LOT of coffee during and I feel it helped, now I am much more calm, "more correct" despite drinking coffee like before.

    Based on this I posit that coffee is used by humans to offset unwanted mentality changes, not a cause of unwanted mentality changes.

  90. 90. nervousvarun||context
    Consider yourself lucky...You are one of these mythical creatures who don't get migraines from caffeine withdrawal. My wife is the same.

    When I quit I get splitting headaches that are way more severe than a typical tension headache. Completely debilitating without medication. Get them for a week or so (also get the muddier thinking but I could live with that).

  91. 91. bayarearefugee||context
    Quitting caffeine after decades of use was a bit of a mixed bag for me in the short term, but positive in the long term.

    Going caffeine-free made it much easier to lose weight as I have far less cravings for high carbs and sugar now, presumably this is related to the impulsivity impact talked about in the paper.

    Going caffeine-free also made me very depressed for a while with severe anhedonia, this lasted way longer (like 3-4 months) than one would generally expect for caffeine withdrawal symptoms.

    I had seemingly become so used to the increased dopamine signaling while buzzed on caffeine that my brain was a mess for a rather extended period of time as it got used to not having it.

    Overall I view quitting as a positive for me, but I'd warn anyone thinking about doing it to do it carefully and closely monitor their mental health. AFAIK the impacts of quitting can be quite different for different people, so my experience may differ than that of others, but I had no idea how much of a (temporary) mental health crash quitting caffeine could cause until I experienced it.

  92. 92. gabriel-uribe||context
    I'm almost exactly 1 year coffee-free (not caffeine free, but significantly less because tea is much less addictive for me).

    Also positive in the long-term for me. Fewer digestive issues, less spiky dopamine sensitive or impulsiveness and performance during the day, better memory. I wish it weren't so.

    But damn was the 3-6 months of anhedonia awful. I still feel pangs of it.

  93. 93. PsylentKnight||context
    How much coffee were you drinking before quitting? 3-6 months seems like a very long time. As far as I know, most withdrawal symptoms should end within 2 weeks, with the most intense symptoms ending within a few days
  94. 94. gabriel-uribe||context
    3-4 cups a day. Was deeply stressed building products with <$100/mo in rev. Couldn't sleep at night from all the caffeine and cortisol spikes.

    The ensuing several months were some of the worst in my life (many confounding variables) missing coffee, feeling anhedonic, and inadequately caffeinated/lucid to tackle my problems.

  95. 95. fc417fc802||context
    > Going caffeine-free made it much easier to lose weight as I have far less cravings

    That's surprising to me. In my case one of the reasons I discontinued it (emotional effects aside) was mild but consistent weight loss. The stimulant part of the effect seems to suppress my appetite quite effectively although at least part of that is likely indirect due to sustained task focus leading me to skip meals.

  96. 96. Lalabadie||context
    You're not alone, caffeine is a known appetite suppressant.
  97. 97. bayarearefugee||context
    > That's surprising to me.

    I think this is one of those YMMV things with caffeine.

    It is an appetite suppressant in general but for me it seems to cause a significant rebound effect.

    On caffeine I would eat less early in the day (when I was most using caffeine) but then I would get severe cravings for carbs/sugar later at night.

    Without the caffeine everything is nice and evened out and I feel way more in control of my eating habits without really trying.

  98. 98. sph||context
    A lot of people and research focus on coffee suppressing appetite, which is downstream to the cortisol-raising effects of fight-and-flight response which raise blood sugar among a myriad other things. What they forget is that elevated blood sugar and cortisol eventually results in lower blood sugar than baseline — which is when the hunger strikes.

    So yes, coffee is an appetite suppressant, but 6-8 hours later your appetite rebounds. Many people don't feel this effect simply because they have frequent-enough meals and/or coffees to stay ahead of the blood sugar crash. If you get into intermittent fasting, it's pretty easy to notice. In my quest to fix my metabolism, I am constantly aware that my morning cup of coffee is the biggest reasons why I get ravenous around 5pm.

  99. 99. Noaidi||context
    You may have naturally low dopamine production or release (or low ATP or GTP). Everyone will react differently because genetics so you are right, everyone needs to be mindful of their reaction.

    You might want to look at this pathway, and the enzymes, and the cofactors for these enzymes:

    https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Pingyuan-Gong/publicati...

    Tyrosine 3-monooxygenase (TH) needs Iron

    Aromatic-L-amino-acid decarboxylase (DDC) needs B6

  100. 100. randusername||context
    I experienced a similar anhedonia when quitting caffeine. I don't think the caffeine itself was the problem, I think it was just helping a lot more than I knew with the inertia of circling the pit without tottering in.

    Turns out I needed stimulants from time to time, just not that one.

  101. 101. pdimitar||context
    What stimulants have you landed on? And do you feel they're better for you?

    I'm pondering getting a coffee machine at home. 400 EUR is not a sizable investment and one I'd have forgotten about it 3 months but I'm getting cold feet when it gets to committing.

    Americano coffee definitely picks me up and is a full net positive for me. But that's only if I drink 2-3 times a week. Not sure how it's going to be if I start getting it every day.

  102. 102. nchmy||context
    Get yourself a moka pot, aeropress or French press. Fantastic coffee for very cheap.

    Highly unlikely that 2-3 times a week will last though - either religiously stick to once a week or be open to drinking it daily.

  103. 103. ValentineC||context
    I second either a moka pot or an AeroPress.

    The moka pot would be better if you have easy access to cooking facilities (the stainless versions are also easier to clean, and work on induction).

    The AeroPress would be better if you only have access to hot water.

  104. 104. pdimitar||context
    As written above, coffee from moka pot absolutely destroys me. :(

    It's too concentrated.

  105. 105. freshchilled||context
    Moka pot coffee is definitely strong. If that's your only coffee maker, I'd just dilute that with more hot water.

    An Aeropress is less concentrated in my experience, and it's pretty easy to use. I prefer iced coffee unless it's cold out, so I fill the collector with ice before I brew. The melted water dilutes it nicely, in my opinion.

  106. 106. pdimitar||context
    I have a moka pot but I guess I am doing it wrong -- maybe I should not fill its coffee compartment to the brim? is there other way of doing it? -- because the coffee that gets out destroys me: heart palpitations, slight arrhythmia, headaches, and energy crash. I can't drink too much caffeine but light doses (i.e. the Americano) actually help me and energize me. It's really weird.

    What's good about the aero-press and the French press btw? I am only just trying to understand the landscape.

  107. 107. nchmy||context
    Look up Moka Pot Voodoo on YouTube. It'll sort you out.

    Americano means nothing - its just diluted strong coffee (eg espresso, moka pot). You probably need to learn how much actual coffee your body can handle.

    I handle very little, so have a 1 cup moka pot which takes 9-10g of ground coffee. And that's pushing my upper limit. My body can usually handle better a very unsatisfying 6-7g brewed. I need to find some good decaf... (though I have a line on Laurina coffee, which has half as much caffeine. Hopefully I can get some soon).

    French press is just a really easy way to get a great cup of coffee. You don't even need one - you could just make cowboy coffee (grounds in hot water) and carefully decant it out at after 5-10 min. Look up James Hoffman french press method. His aeropress series is good too.

    You also need to learn that all of this stuff that everyone says is just drug addict self-talk coping. You only actually get a boost at first, and then your body adapts and is in caffeine deficit and is just trying to get back to baseline with more coffee.

    The healthiest way to do any of this would be to try as you said (but likely unsuccessfully) to limit your coffee intake to 2-3 days a week, so that you might actually get a kick rather than just sustain your addiction. Once a week as a special occasion might be more successful. It should be treated as a healthy person treats alcohol...

    I'm not even joking with all this drug addict talk.

  108. 108. ValentineC||context
    > I have a moka pot but I guess I am doing it wrong -- maybe I should not fill its coffee compartment to the brim?

    How big is your moka pot? A "4 cup" Bialetti takes around 16-18g of coffee, which isn't a lot.

    No matter how dilute your end product is, the amount of caffeine consumed will roughly be about the same. But I guess diluting it means you take longer to consume all that caffeine.

  109. 109. nchmy||context
    That doesn't make sense, as my 1 cup takes 10g and 3 cup takes 30g.
  110. 110. ValentineC||context
    Is yours a Bialetti? Mine's the "4 cup" stainless steel Venus, so I think it's probably like a "3 cup" Moka Express:

    https://www.reddit.com/r/mokapot/comments/1p61tgb/how_much_c...

  111. 111. nchmy||context
    Yes bialetti original. Sounds like the venus is the difference.

    Ps Check out moka pot voodoo on YouTube, if you haven't already. I almost never make a bad brew now (except for literally just now, but was with a new bean, roasted darker than usual. Will grind finer next time).

  112. 112. benhurmarcel||context
    Especially if you like Americanos, chances are you'll be happier with filter coffee from good beans, rather than spending it in an espresso machine.

    Get an Aeropress, or Hario Switch, or Clever dripper. A kettle and some filters. For beans buy from roasters that do light/meduim roasts, and print a recent roasting date on the package/website. The only expensive item should be a grinder, look at 1zpresso Q/Air/X or Kingrinder K6 if you want to limit price.

  113. 113. pdimitar||context
    Not gonna lie, this sounds like way too much work.

    What I am mostly looking for is some sort of an easy access to a diluted coffee like the Americano, really. I am OK with buying 1-2kg of beans because I am fairly sure that's going to last me 3-6 months. Cleaning the machine I've done in offices -- 3 minute job.

    But any more commitment just sounds tiring. I am not a coffee connoisseur by any stretch of the imagination. But light caffeine doses absolutely do help me in very measurable ways. I need easy access to that.

    Buying a coffee machine is not a big commitment obviously, I am just afraid I'll deem the experiment unsuccessful in a month and then I'll have a nice machine lying around doing nothing that I can't easily sell.

  114. 114. ses1984||context
    You can get an over-the-cup pour over for ~$10-20, basic blade grinder for the same, and a pack of filters. That’s all you really need.
  115. 115. ValentineC||context
    A cheap proper coffee hand grinder like a Timemore C2 would go so much further than a blade grinder that would shred the coffee beans up inconsistently.

    (Buy used for even better value. Hand grinders last forever.)

  116. 116. wafflemaker||context
    https://www.appliancesdirect.co.uk/p/6760642/melitta-6760642...

    This style, pour over machine that grinds itself, but uses all water you put in, so it's not fully automatic.

    It's automatic enough, but also very cheap. Maybe even ⅒ of a price of a fancy espresso machine. And you can add "too much" water (than the setting you set) to make lighter coffee.

  117. 117. benhurmarcel||context
    In that case, if you stick to pre-ground coffee, just get an Oxo Rapid Brewer. It’s cheap, easy and fast to use and clean, and only requires a kettle. You’ll get decent coffee.
  118. 118. michaelhoney||context
    If you are keen for a machine and you like it diluted, I recommend the Moccamaster. It’s a good-looking classic machine that you could definitely sell.

    For a similar coffee with more manual work, get a Chemex

  119. 119. dgacmu||context
    I finally gave in and got a breville bambino plus and I have no regrets. It was $400 on sale, produces quite decent espresso, foams milk well, has been very reliable, and doesn't heat up the kitchen - I held off getting an espresso machine for years because the instant heat ones always seemed to suck. This one doesn't. I mostly drink Americanos and straight espressos, my wife drinks lattes, everybody is happy.

    But I have to agree with others: for my diluted espresso desires, I used (and still have) an Aeropress for years and it's simply fantastic. Low cost, almost zero maintenance, good results. Very similar output to an americano though lower on crema.

  120. 120. pdimitar||context
    Nice. Does it have a special option for Americano?

    That's the main reason I'm leaning towards Delonghi Magnifica Start. It has a button for Americano. I tried moka pot coffee + diluting it with hot water. It's not the same. :(